Coptic Orthodox Priest Evangelizes Muslims

[Apotheoun]

What I like about Fr. Zakaria Botros' approach to Islam is that he uses Islamic texts (the Qur'an, Hadith collections, the tafsir, etc.) to show the problems with Islam.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

As soon as he said that the "minister" graduated with a Masters in Divinity from Harvard I lost all respect for the "Christian" convert. I am amazed that anyone who goes into Harvard, let alone who graduates from that liberal mainline institution, remains a Christian.

What's wrong with Harvard's divinity school?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

One does not have to argue from a "cynical" perspective to say that many people who know a lot of "facts" about Christian theology are not necessarily Christian. If you read the ancient Fathers they make it clear that knowledge of God is not learned in a school, but is revealed through grace and prayer. In fact, to paraphrase St. Gregory of Nyssa . . . it is only when a man leaves behind the discursive reasoning that he mistakenly believes gives him knowledge of God, that he can truly find God by faith. The Eastern Fathers would never accept the Scholastic notion that faith is an act of intellect and will, because for them faith transcends the human person, while simultaneously elevating him beyond himself into the very uncreated life and glory of the Trinity. It is not because a man finds the Christian revelation reasonable that he comes to faith, because that would be little more than a form of Pelagianism; instead, it is because God has infused the man with His uncreated energies, which enable him to see clearly what is beyond all vision, that he can have faith in Christ.

This is why I prefer the mystical understanding of religion in the Eastern Churches. However, I still think it is cynical to say that they are not truly Christian. Is it not possible for a person to find God in a similar way as a Sufi?

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Actually, the Qur'an has not remained constant through the centuries. There are earlier editions of the Qur'an that show evidence of editing. The Atlantic had an interesting article on that several years ago. Click the link below to read the essay:

 

What Is the Koran?

You are right for making this point. I failed to make it clear that I do not actually agree with that specific argument. I am trying to show that Muslims and Christians tend to both offer criticism towards each other that could easily be reversed and applied to either religion. 

[Apotheoun]

You are right for making this point. I failed to make it clear that I do not actually agree with that specific argument. I am trying to show that Muslims and Christians tend to both offer criticism towards each other that could easily be reversed and applied to either religion. 

I used to get in debates with Muslims on theological matters (e.g., the fact that Islam teaches that Allah and the Qur'an are both eternal and uncreated, and that they are not the same "thing"), but I found that a lot of Muslims were ignorant of their own doctrinal tradition. Some Muslims in America come off as Protestant on issues related to the Qur'an, that is, they hold a kind of "sola scriptura" position, which is certainly not normative in Sunni Islam. I should probably make it clear that in all my years of interaction with Muslims I never once met an American convert to Islam. All of the Muslims I met were foreign exchange students studying at DVC and SFSU. The Muslims at SFSU used to have - I don't know if they still do - anti-Jewish protests on campus. I did a minor in Jewish Studies and I found it interesting that a lot of the teachers and students in the Jewish Studies field were afraid of the Muslims. It was sad that these Jewish teachers and students - all of whom were born and raised in the United States - were afraid for the own safety on campus. Hopefully things are better now than they were in the late 90s and early 2000s.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I used to get in debates with Muslims on theological matters (e.g., the fact that Islam teaches that Allah and the Qur'an are both eternal and uncreated, and that they are not the same "thing"), but I found that a lot of Muslims were ignorant of their own doctrinal tradition. Some Muslims in America come off as Protestant on issues related to the Qur'an, that is, they hold a kind of "sola scriptura" position, which is certainly not normative in Sunni Islam. I should probably make it clear that in all my years of interaction with Muslims I never once met an American convert to Islam. All of the Muslims I met were foreign exchange students studying at DVC and SFSU. The Muslims at SFSU used to have - I don't know if they still do - anti-Jewish protests on campus. I did a minor in Jewish Studies and I found it interesting that a lot of the teachers and students in the Jewish Studies field were afraid of the Muslims. It was sad that these Jewish teachers and students - all of whom were born and raised in the United States - were afraid for the own safety on campus. Hopefully things are better now than they were in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Fascinating. I've met two American converts to Islam at my University. One of them was a former presbyterian who now is fully veiled (except her eyes). 

[Apotheoun]

Fascinating. I've met two American converts to Islam at my University. One of them was a former presbyterian who now is fully veiled (except her eyes). 

Was she a true Calvinist, that is, did she accept Calvin's predestinarian nonsense?  Calvinism and Islam are very similar when it comes to the focus on the will of God as absolute and rejecting the truth that man has free will.

[Ice_nine]

God will deliver the Muslim peoples from Mohammed's teachings, insha'allah

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Was she a true Calvinist, that is, did she accept Calvin's predestinarian nonsense?  Calvinism and Islam are very similar when it comes to the focus on the will of God as absolute and rejecting the truth that man has free will.

I don't know. She believed in temporary marriage and I thought that was really amusing.

[Apotheoun]

I don't know. She believed in temporary marriage and I thought that was really amusing.

Sounds like she didn't know much about Calvinism.

[Guest Sojourn]

I don't know. She believed in temporary marriage and I thought that was really amusing.

 

Maybe she's Shia, some of them believe in temporary marriage.

 

You also mentioned the Sufis earlier, the real ones don't call it 'sufism' but Tassawuf. I spent at least a year with the Naksibendi Tariqat and I must say the Shaykh was indeed spiritually advanced. There appeared to be some otherworldly things associated with him and that reality made me meditate on some things. How could God permit extraordinary works among a non-Christian? My initial thoughts are that invincible ignorance has something to do with it, and perhaps anyone who sincerely seeks out God will be rewarded in some way. In addition, spiritual practices are largely the same, if someone follows them it is possible to get closer to God. The other option is that this is demonic activity but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Maybe she's Shia, some of them believe in temporary marriage.

She was.

You also mentioned the Sufis earlier, the real ones don't call it 'sufism' but Tassawuf. I spent at least a year with the Naksibendi Tariqat and I must say the Shaykh was indeed spiritually advanced. There appeared to be some otherworldly things associated with him and that reality made me meditate on some things. How could God permit extraordinary works among a non-Christian? My initial thoughts are that invincible ignorance has something to do with it, and perhaps anyone who sincerely seeks out God will be rewarded in some way. In addition, spiritual practices are largely the same, if someone follows them it is possible to get closer to God. The other option is that this is demonic activity but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Wow, how interesting! I am very ignorant about this topic. Did you happen to be in Turkey?
Also, I think there are different paths to the same divine reality. I like this priest's explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04gdsFt_zDY

[Apotheoun]

The priest's comments are not only contrary to the canons of the ancient Church (as found in the Pedalion), but are also in open contradiction to the teaching found in the CDF Document Dominus Iesus. Theological indifferentism was condemned by the Church long ago. Theological faith, that is faith in Christ, is not to be confused with "faith" (or better "belief") that is found in other religions. Christ is the sole savior of mankind, and all men are called to explicit faith in Him as savior. To put it another way, there is no salvation in Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, or any other man made "ism." Instead, salvation is found only in Christ, and that salvation is mediated to man through His body the Church.

[Apotheoun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eMGbGWbBnU

 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Interesting, this monk is more controversial than i thought.