Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 That's true. Russia did violently conquer the region some time ago and has had varying degrees of control over it during that time. It doesnt matter who controls Chechnya. That war has basically left a power vacuum that is only going to be filled by the absolute worst human scum imaginable. The only thing that would change would be whether said human scum would have Russian or Chechen surnames. Yeah, it conquered the region in a war with Persia/Iran in the early 19th century. No news there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Yeah, I know about the resurgence of nationalism, but Russia is not going to give up Chechnya because if its location in the Caucasus as a buffer with Iran and Turkey. Russia has controlled Chechnya longer than the United States has controlled the Southwestern States we took from Mexico. Sure. And there are a lot of reasons that the war has continued. The Eurasian ideology of elites in Moscow, the political profits, oil lines, all sorts of things. But the really tragic thing is that this war shouldn't have happened. There were sincere nationalists in Chechnya but a lot of the Chechen leadership were charlatans and just wanted to get a nice deal like the Tartar elites got. Dudayev didn't really have any intention of leaving Russia. He was a charlatan and he thought Moscow would give him a nice deal that would get him some power and a liot of money. The Russians elites knew this wasn't an emergency they just wanted to strengthen their hands with other nationalist groups. This whole thing just spiraled out of control and, unfortunately, it is largely the ordinary Russian and Chechen people, rather than the Charlatans, who have paid for it with their blood and suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) Russia is going to keep the region, just as the United States is going to keep the Southwestern States it stole from Mexico, and that is true even if the Mexican population in those states rises to a majority. Russia is not going to allow its southern border to be exposed to Iran and Turkey, two of its traditional enemies. Moreover, the Russians entered the region because they had treaties with the many small Christian groups and states in the region, groups and states that were experiencing Islamic persecution. Let's not forget about the fact that Turkey conquered more than half of the former Armenian homeland (an area that is about a fifth to one quarter of present day Turkey in the eastern part of that country), and I have no doubt that Turkey has no intention of giving all that land back to Armenia. Heck Turkey committed mass genocide in the early years of the 20th century to insure that it would control that land for the foreseeable future. By the way, since you have all the name of the terrorists in the region perhaps you should supply them to President Obama, the 2009 Nobel laureate for peace, so that he can add them to his kill list. Edited April 21, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 The Russians elites knew this wasn't an emergency they just wanted to strengthen their hands with other nationalist groups. This whole thing just spiraled out of control and, unfortunately, it is largely the ordinary Russian and Chechen people, rather than the Charlatans, who have paid for it with their blood and suffering. One of the benefits of periodically attending Russian Orthodox Churches is that I know lots of Russian Americans and lots of recent émigrés from Russia, and none of them are "elites," but none of them want Russia to give up any of its territory (and for them that includes Chechnya). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) One of the benefits of periodically attending Russian Orthodox Churches is that I know lots of Russian Americans and lots of recent émigrés from Russia, and none of them are "elites," but none of them want Russia to give up any of its territory (and for them that includes Chechnya). I think that the polls show that a majority of ethnic Chechens wish to remain part of Russia with some autonomy. Which takes us the same solution that ought to have been reached in 1993 The war shouldn't have happened. If Dudayev and Yeltsin had been better men it never would have. Edited April 21, 2013 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I think that the polls show that a majority of ethnic Chechens wish to remain part of Russia with some autonomy. Which takes us the same solution that ought to have been reached in 1993 That's ultimately for the Russians to decide. I doubt the United States government would be open to "autonomy" for Texas or any other former Mexican area. Federal law reigns supreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 That's ultimately for the Russians to decide. I doubt the United States government would be open to "autonomy" for Texas or any other former Mexican area. Federal law reigns supreme. We have a similar relationship with Puerto Rico and somehow we get along fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 We have a similar relationship with Puerto Rico and somehow we get along fine. Yeah, we have a pretty good relationship with Puerto Rico now, but we haven't always had that. Chechnya is an internal affair of the Russian Federation, and the Russian people should do what they want with the region, because it is a historic part of their country, just like California in the United States is a part of our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Yeah, we have a pretty good relationship with Puerto Rico now, but we haven't always had that. Chechnya is an internal affair of the Russian Federation, and the Russian people should do what they want with the region, because it is a historic part of their country, just like California in the United States is a part of our country. The technical questions of the legal relationship between the Chechen territory and the rest of the Russian Federation is an internal matter for the Russian state. The staggering human rights abuses that have occurred consistently and regularly in Chechnya under Russian occupation and under the 'Presidentcy' of Ramzan Kadyrov are a matter of international concern. The abuses being suffered are not just ethnic Chechens. Tens of thousands of ethnic Russians were killed in the Russian governments first attempt to retake Grozny with the conventional Russian army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StMichael Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Is this what is being taught in schools today? Amazing. The United States STOLE NOTHING. The land came by way of The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which came at the end of the 2 year Mexican-American War (1846-1848). In that treaty the United States PURCHASED the land for $15 Million. Mexicans that were living in the area that comprised California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, parts of Wyoming and Colorado were given a choice to stay and become full US citizens or they could leave to live in Mexico. Mexico, having claiming its independence from the Spanish Empire (whose land the above belonged to) in 1821, it was not even their land to start with. The remaining parts of land were PURCHASED in 1853, known as the Gadsden Purchase, for $10 million for the southern part of Arizona and the southwestern part of New Mexico. In total, the United States PAID Mexico $25 Million from 1848 - 1853 for the land you incorrectly state as "stolen." You can find other things in history to support your theories other than parroting an absolute false history to support your claims. Russia is going to keep the region, just as the United States is going to keep the Southwestern States it stole from Mexico, and that is true even if the Mexican population in those states rises to a majority. Russia is not going to allow its southern border to be exposed to Iran and Turkey, two of its traditional enemies. Moreover, the Russians entered the region because they had treaties with the many small Christian groups and states in the region, groups and states that were experiencing Islamic persecution. Let's not forget about the fact that Turkey conquered more than half of the former Armenian homeland (an area that is about a fifth to one quarter of present day Turkey in the eastern part of that country), and I have no doubt that Turkey has no intention of giving all that land back to Armenia. Heck Turkey committed mass genocide in the early years of the 20th century to insure that it would control that land for the foreseeable future. By the way, since you have all the name of the terrorists in the region perhaps you should supply them to President Obama, the 2009 Nobel laureate for peace, so that he can add them to his kill list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Is this what is being taught in schools today? Amazing. The United States STOLE NOTHING. The land came by way of The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, which came at the end of the 2 year Mexican-American War (1846-1848). In that treaty the United States PURCHASED the land for $15 Million. Mexicans that were living in the area that comprised California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, parts of Wyoming and Colorado were given a choice to stay and become full US citizens or they could leave to live in Mexico. Mexico, having claiming its independence from the Spanish Empire (whose land the above belonged to) in 1821, it was not even their land to start with. The remaining parts of land were PURCHASED in 1853, known as the Gadsden Purchase, for $10 million for the southern part of Arizona and the southwestern part of New Mexico. In total, the United States PAID Mexico $25 Million from 1848 - 1853 for the land you incorrectly state as "stolen." You can find other things in history to support your theories other than parroting an absolute false history to support your claims. I wonder if sometimes at the conclusions of wars the victor offers to add some sort of titular payment as a face saving incentive to the defeated nation to just accept defeat and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Is this what is being taught in schools today? Amazing. :unsure: Apotheoun is probably older than you are, and I don't think he's been in a formal school for a long time, although i'm sure he'll correct me if i'm wrong :unsure: (thus ends my contribution to this thread). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Does it honestly not strike you as weird that if Mexico was looking to sell this land and America was looking to buy it that hostilities would just erupt into a war? Do you not find it odd that after that was Mexico would be looking to enter a business transaction with the country it had just been defeated by in a war? None of that situation strikes you as even a tiny bit weird or out of place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Mexico should legalize drugs, and explain to the mall cops that populate the DEA that there will be no cooperation with their aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Mexico should legalize drugs, and explain to the mall cops that populate the DEA that there will be no cooperation with their aggression. "Mall cops" is pretty generous. At least mall cops are not paid with stolen money. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now