Church/saint Teaching And Modesty

[EmilyAnn]

Are you saying you do not believe in the Fatima apparitions? 

Not at all. Personally, if the Church has declared something worthy of belief then I trust that. 

[Papist]

Could this be moved to the debate table?

I think the point it being here is not to debate, but to discuss Church/Saints teachings/wisdom and share thoughts on modesty. 

 

No one should be telling anyone he/she is wrong.  We all should talk about ourselves and why we choose our modesty lifestyle, whatever that is.  Also, we all should not misinterpret someone's modesty philosophy as a condemnation of ours.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I am not saying we should ignore them, I am saying we are not bound to them. There is a difference.

 

And I was saying quote dogma/doctrine because another person was trying to hold me to that but not doing it themselves. 

 

I read through those posts to understand what you mean. It seems like the poster was saying that there are dogmas and doctrines (2 different things) and he was talking about some doctrines, and Fatima is related because it doesn't contradict doctrines. You were disagreeing and saying that he did not say any doctrine. Am I correct?

 

I don't know if we are over complicating it or what... I think - if Mary said something at Fatima, - it's good to just believe it and it doesn't contradict doctrine anyway. That's why I brought up the whole point, that private revelations are helpful to understand/live out public revelation more deeply. (I just listened to a sermon where a priest said that - private revelation helps us to enter more deeply into public revelation). So Fatima helps us to understand more about the Church's doctrines on - let's say modesty, along with many other things (like the reality of hell, or sin, or chastity, or prayer, the Rosary, conversions) - so we can listen to Fatima's message about modesty and follow it :)

Edited May 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[EmilyAnn]

I read through those posts to understand what you mean. It seems like the poster was saying that there are dogmas and doctrines (2 different things) and he was talking about some doctrines, and Fatima is related because it doesn't contradict doctrines. You were disagreeing and saying that he did not say any doctrine. Am I correct?

 

I don't know if we are over complicating it or what... I think - if Mary said something at Fatima, - it's good to just believe it and it doesn't contradict doctrine anyway. That's why I brought up the whole point, that private revelations are helpful to understand/live out public revelation more deeply. (I just listened to a sermon where a priest said that - private revelation helps us to enter more deeply into public revelation). So Fatima helps us to understand more about the Church's doctrines on - let's say modesty, along with many other things (like the reality of hell, or sin, or chastity, or prayer, the Rosary, conversions) - so we can listen to Fatima's message about modesty and follow it :)

The poster tried to demand that I argue my point using only dogma/doctrine. While I do not object to doing so on principle, my objection was to doing so when they were not. Just because something does not contradict doctrine does not make it doctrine. 

[MarysLittleFlower]

I'm just reading through the quote:

 

"the sins which bring most souls to hell are the sins of the flesh. Certain fashions are going to be introduced which will offend Our Lord very much... the Church has no fashions; Our Lord is always the same..."

http://www.catholicmodesty.com/Jacintamodesty.html

 

So we can reflect/pray on that perhaps :)

 

 

Edited May 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[dominicansoul]

Our Lady stated the obvious:   "there will be fashions introduced that will offend God."  

 

And if you don't agree and instead believe that in all cultures, and in every single corner of the world there are absolutely no such things as immodest fashions...then, there's nothing else to discuss...

 

 

This thread are for those who believe there are immodest fashions (we're not debating that in this thread.)  It's also a thread to discuss what the Saints have taught us and how do we apply their advice to our own fashions and dress.  

[MarysLittleFlower]

The poster tried to demand that I argue my point using only dogma/doctrine. While I do not object to doing so on principle, my objection was to doing so when they were not. Just because something does not contradict doctrine does not make it doctrine. 

 

I understand what you mean now. Maybe Jim111 can clarify if he was trying to use doctrine or not :)

 

I see he included this quote, - but I'm not sure where it's from.... Jim111: could you explain to us maybe the source of this quote?

 

There are two aspects to Christian modesty. The first is to

avoid being an occasion of sin. The second, more positively

speaking, is to be instilled with the spirit of modesty inspired by

a deep love for the virtue of chastity, and also by the proper

understanding that our clothing is meant to enhance the

dignity of the human body and to be a symbol of our state in life.

Both aspects, while in no way excluding men, are much more important

for women. Because of the natural differences in the genders,

women are both far more prone to be occasions of sin, and, being

"the weaker vessel" (1Pet. 3:7),to be treated with less dignity

or respect. Proper dress does much to overcome this, and this is why

St. Paul wrote in the New Testament that women should appear

"in decent apparel; adorning themselves with modesty and

sobriety."

[Papist]

Not at all. Personally, if the Church has declared something worthy of belief then I trust that. 

I understand the point you are making. It is very similar to a conversation I had with my sis-in-law re JPII theology of the body. I was encouraging her to read some of it. She did some, but told me that it was not infallible teaching, implying she was not bound to adhere to.  This is true, but I told her we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we dismissed things on the basis that we are not bound by Church law to believe. I think perhaps the message of Fatima may fit into this category.  Just something to think about. I do not mean to say you do not believe the message of Fatima. That I do not know.

[EmilyAnn]

 

I understand what you mean now. Maybe Jim111 can clarify if he was trying to use doctrine or not :)

 

I see he included this quote, - but I'm not sure where it's from.... Jim111: could you explain to us maybe the source of this quote?

 

There are two aspects to Christian modesty. The first is to

avoid being an occasion of sin. The second, more positively

speaking, is to be instilled with the spirit of modesty inspired by

a deep love for the virtue of chastity, and also by the proper

understanding that our clothing is meant to enhance the

dignity of the human body and to be a symbol of our state in life.

Both aspects, while in no way excluding men, are much more important

for women. Because of the natural differences in the genders,

women are both far more prone to be occasions of sin, and, being

"the weaker vessel" (1Pet. 3:7),to be treated with less dignity

or respect. Proper dress does much to overcome this, and this is why

St. Paul wrote in the New Testament that women should appear

"in decent apparel; adorning themselves with modesty and

sobriety."

 

As far as I can tell, it is from a booklet by a "modesty crusade" group.

[EmilyAnn]

I understand the point you are making. It is very similar to a conversation I had with my sis-in-law re JPII theology of the body. I was encouraging her to read some of it. She did some, but told me that it was not infallible teaching, implying she was not bound to adhere to.  This is true, but I told her we would be doing ourselves a disservice if we dismissed things on the basis that we are not bound by Church law to believe. I think perhaps the message of Fatima may fit into this category.  Just something to think about. I do not mean to say you do not believe the message of Fatima. That I do not know.

I think you are misunderstanding why I was making that point, and I have already explained in my posts responding to MarysLittleFlower .

To clarify, my objection was not to the use of Fatima in the discussion, my objection was that the other poster was demanding I use only doctrinal sources but not doing so themselves.

Edited May 13, 2013 by EmilyAnn

[MarysLittleFlower]

 

Our Lady stated the obvious:   "there will be fashions introduced that will offend God."  

 

And if you don't agree and instead believe that in all cultures, and in every single corner of the world there are absolutely no such things as immodest fashions...then, there's nothing else to discuss...

 

 

This thread are for those who believe there are immodest fashions (we're not debating that in this thread.)  It's also a thread to discuss what the Saints have taught us and how do we apply their advice to our own fashions and dress.  

 

 

yes... I think what my approach has been, is just looking at Fatima, the Saints' statements, and basing my view of modesty on that, and also - some other things came up over time like certain statements by the Popes (like Pope Pius XII, if I remember correctly) - and just general theological principles like not tempting others. etc. When you put it all together.... then you kind of get a picture. I'm still collecting points, obviously :) and I still want to pray for more guidance on this, and also there's the points about humility and internal modesty as others have mentioned.

 

I think one of the points I've been trying to say is that when the Saints spoke about modesty, that means more to me than the standards we've grown up with, etc, because our society could easily be wrong. The Saints lived holy lives so they saw the world from a different perspective, like looking at a city from a tower, rather than from the streets. What they said was either revelation or the result of much prayer and serving God faithfully.

 

For me, it's like - St Padre Pio's words vs our cultural opinion... I'd much rather go with St Padre Pio :) I'm sure he knew more about this topic than I do.

 

If people say - we don't HAVE to believe these things, or - the Saints are not infallible - I don't think that's what I was getting at, I wasn't trying to show that Saints are infallible. However, just because they are infallible, doens't mean that we shouldn't take their words seriously, or that they are not true, or not revelaled by God, or that our society's views are better. In fact, I'd pretty much always choose a Saints' view over our society's view, cause frankly our society is following many wrong ideas.

 

I think in the end, I just decided to follow the Saints' advice about dress and fashions more than I did before... so for anyone who thinks this is a good idea, maybe we can look at what the Saints said and pray about how to apply it :) we can also ask God to help us see more about this topic, because there are many specific questions that maybe don't have answers, and we need light on certain issues that God can give. If He illuminates our minds, perhaps we would have a more correct outlook on these issues, so my plan is to pray for more guidance.

 

All I know is that when I come to church dressed more like what the Saints talked about - like what St Padre Pio advised women to wear - (and there was a quote about men too) - I feel much better and more peaceful because I'm more covered up so the attention is more on God, not on my appearance or trying to be "attractive". I still need to work some things out but overall I feel much better in church in a long skirt than I did before wearing other things :)

Edited May 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[Papist]

 

Our Lady stated the obvious:   "there will be fashions introduced that will offend God."  

 

And if you don't agree and instead believe that in all cultures, and in every single corner of the world there are absolutely no such things as immodest fashions...then, there's nothing else to discuss...

 

 

This thread are for those who believe there are immodest fashions (we're not debating that in this thread.)  It's also a thread to discuss what the Saints have taught us and how do we apply their advice to our own fashions and dress.  

 

I believe Our Lady was being more prophetic than just clothes. Yes, it includes clothes, but I think about all the toxic fashions in the past 90 years that has pulled us away from Christ. e.g. Hell does not exist.

[Papist]

I think you are misunderstanding why I was making that point, and I have already explained in my posts responding to MarysLittleFlower .

To clarify, my objection was not to the use of Fatima in the discussion, my objection was that the other poster was demanding I use only doctrinal sources but not doing so themselves.

Sorry. 

[EmilyAnn]

I am trying to find the wider text of what Our Lady said at Fatima, specifically the context of this quote on fashions (and preferably the original Portuguese) but I can only seem to find that short quote on modesty sites. Or am I searching for the impossible?

[EmilyAnn]

Sorry. 

No problem. :) I understand when threads go over several pages it can be easy to misunderstand where a discussion came from.