Plato Invented The Trinity?

[DeoDuce]

So Jehovah's Witnesses apparently say that the trinity is not biblical and is a pagan idea, from Roman and Greek gods and also developed by Plato and maybe the Egyptians. . .

 

Can anyone shed some light on that, I am not well versed in mythology and I do not  know where to look.

 

Also, how do I respond when they tell me that 'no one has ever seen God' (that's in John 1), because people saw Jesus. They use this to 'prove' that Jesus was not God, but a 'god', and I do not know how to articulate a response.

 

Thanks Phriends!

[Nihil Obstat]

The Bible is quite clear, both in proper translations and the original Greek, that the Word was God, not 'a' God.
 
Gospel of John:
 
 
Chapter 1 
The Word Became Flesh Among Us 
 
John 1:1  Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.  
 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


As to the rest of it, I am sure someone else can address that. :)

[Maximilianus]

Jason Evert's book "Answering Jehovas Witnesses" dedicates a whole chapter to that issue. It's worth getting the book if you are constantly exposed to the JW's.

 

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society have deliberately mistranslated text in their New World Translation to fit their beliefs. 

Edited April 9, 2013 by Maximilianus

[Basilisa Marie]

Plato did not invent the trinity. 

 

Tertullian was the first to use the latin word for "trinity" ("trinitas") to describe God. 

[Luigi]

Neither the Egyptians, the Greeks, nor the Romans ever had anything like a trinity. They were all polytheistic - they believed in a whole slew of gods. And the gods did not have equal power (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all all equal, one god, in three persons).

 

The Jehovah's witnesses don't know A from B when it comes to God.

[thessalonian]

One has to be careful in answering a question like this.  There are a lot of things in pagan/pre-christian mythology that are like what is found in Christianity.  There are several reasons for this I think.  First of all there is the volume of material, the number of gods in pagan mythology.  Some of it is bound to be like Christianity.  A father with a son for instance.  Big deal.  Then it is quite clear from scripture and some of the mythology that Judaism was known to the outside world.  Thus the story of Gilgamesh is similar to the story of Noah.    Some claim Gilgamesh was where the story of Noah originated because it predates the Jewish scriptures. The mistake here is that the Jews carried on the story of Noah in their traditions before it was written.  Then there is another possibility.  God can be known in his creation.  That is what Romans 1 tells us.  Thus there are things perceived by people outside of Judaism and Christianity from nature that are true.    The wise men may be a combination of these last two possibilities I am proposing.  So there may be things in pagan writings that implicate trinitarian thought for various reasons.  It doesn't prove anything about Christianity is my point.

[TheLordsSouljah]

While Plato himself did not invent the 'Trinity' as such, he came up with a 'forms' idea in the physical and spiritual realm which is kind of like the 'ladder of creation', with God at the top and non-living rocks and stuff at the bottom. However, later on a great follower of his ideas , Plotinus, (200cAD) who was purely coming from a pagan background actually did give reference to some sort of 'Trinity' in his ideas, based upon Plato's forms. It comprised of 'The One', The 'divine Intellect/Logos', and the 'Soul'. It's quite an amazing image for a pagan. BUT, just because this was rationed out by a pagan doesn't mean it is far from the truth. Anyhow...

 

You don't even need to talk about what I just said, just putting it out there, but remember that while the word Trinity is actually not in the Bible (word must have been coined for the purpose of articulating God by some Christian philosopher later..... any of you Pham know who??). All the elements of the Trinity are already in Scripture.... there is talk of the Spirit (Baptism of the Lord, for one), the Father (don't even need to give an example), and Jesus as the 'Word' (in John ch. 1 was meant to be understood by Greek culture and society of the time... the Logos was actually God and not a 'thing' or a strange entity). And it's okay to point out that not everything that is true is in the Bible. John 20:30 says there 'were many other signs that Jesus worked in the sight of the disciples, but they are not recorded in this book.' Also 21:24: "This disciple is the one who vouches for these things and has written them down, and we know that his testimony istrue. There was much esle that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written.'

 

We cannot understand everything about God, otherwise He would not be God, but there is such a thing a Christian philosophy, and it's worth studying. Much of our Faith is articulated by philosophers like Augustine (as we all know!! :P).

 

[TheLordsSouljah]

While Plato himself did not invent the 'Trinity' as such, he came up with a 'forms' idea in the physical and spiritual realm which is kind of like the 'ladder of creation', with God at the top and non-living rocks and stuff at the bottom. However, later on a great follower of his ideas , Plotinus, (200cAD) who was purely coming from a pagan background actually did give reference to some sort of 'Trinity' in his ideas, based upon Plato's forms. It comprised of 'The One', The 'divine Intellect/Logos', and the 'Soul'. It's quite an amazing image for a pagan. BUT, just because this was rationed out by a pagan doesn't mean it is far from the truth. Anyhow...

 

You don't even need to talk about what I just said, just putting it out there, but remember that while the word Trinity is actually not in the Bible (word must have been coined for the purpose of articulating God by some Christian philosopher later..... any of you Pham know who??). All the elements of the Trinity are already in Scripture.... there is talk of the Spirit (Baptism of the Lord, for one), the Father (don't even need to give an example), and Jesus as the 'Word' (in John ch. 1 was meant to be understood by Greek culture and society of the time... the Logos was actually God and not a 'thing' or a strange entity). And it's okay to point out that not everything that is true is in the Bible. John 20:30 says there 'were many other signs that Jesus worked in the sight of the disciples, but they are not recorded in this book.' Also 21:24: "This disciple is the one who vouches for these things and has written them down, and we know that his testimony istrue. There was much esle that Jesus did; if it were written down in detail, I do not suppose the world itself would hold all the books that would be written.'

 

We cannot understand everything about God, otherwise He would not be God, but there is such a thing a Christian philosophy, and it's worth studying. Much of our Faith is articulated by philosophers like Augustine (as we all know!! :P).

 

[thessalonian]

Unlike much of evangelical protestantism the intent of the Catholic Church is not to destroy other cultures and beliefs but  to redeem them.   It has always been the way of the Catholic missionary to learn the culture, practices, and beliefs of the people of an area and use it to convert them to Christ.  To find truth in their beliefs.  An interesting example is from a missionary who spoke at our parish once.  He was from New Guinea.  Now even up to the 1950's there were Canabals in New Guinea.  Not the place you would want your superior to say "Well fr. Joe guess where I am sending you".  But intersetingly enough the people of that country responded well to Catholicism.  Can you guess why?  They were easily converted to the Catholic way of "canabalisim".  The Eucharist.  There is truth in all people.  Paul says test all things and hold on to what is good.  Thus if some "seeds" of truth could be seen in Plato's writings that point to the Trinity so be it.  It should not be as embarrassing for us as it sometimes seems on the surface.  Paul after all went to the Areopogus in Acts 17 and used the altar to the unknown god to convert the greeks.

[Gabriela]

Unlike much of evangelical protestantism the intent of the Catholic Church is not to destroy other cultures and beliefs but  to redeem them.   It has always been the way of the Catholic missionary to learn the culture, practices, and beliefs of the people of an area and use it to convert them to Christ.  To find truth in their beliefs.  An interesting example is from a missionary who spoke at our parish once.  He was from New Guinea.  Now even up to the 1950's there were Canabals in New Guinea.  Not the place you would want your superior to say "Well fr. Joe guess where I am sending you".  But intersetingly enough the people of that country responded well to Catholicism.  Can you guess why?  They were easily converted to the Catholic way of "canabalisim".  The Eucharist.  There is truth in all people.  Paul says test all things and hold on to what is good.  Thus if some "seeds" of truth could be seen in Plato's writings that point to the Trinity so be it.  It should not be as embarrassing for us as it sometimes seems on the surface.  Paul after all went to the Areopogus in Acts 17 and used the altar to the unknown god to convert the greeks.

 

I think this is one of the most beautiful things about Catholicism. Thank you for stating it so clearly. :-)

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Unlike much of evangelical protestantism the intent of the Catholic Church is not to destroy other cultures and beliefs but  to redeem them.   It has always been the way of the Catholic missionary to learn the culture, practices, and beliefs of the people of an area and use it to convert them to Christ.  To find truth in their beliefs.  An interesting example is from a missionary who spoke at our parish once.  He was from New Guinea.  Now even up to the 1950's there were Canabals in New Guinea.  Not the place you would want your superior to say "Well fr. Joe guess where I am sending you".  But intersetingly enough the people of that country responded well to Catholicism.  Can you guess why?  They were easily converted to the Catholic way of "canabalisim".  The Eucharist.  There is truth in all people.  Paul says test all things and hold on to what is good.  Thus if some "seeds" of truth could be seen in Plato's writings that point to the Trinity so be it.  It should not be as embarrassing for us as it sometimes seems on the surface.  Paul after all went to the Areopogus in Acts 17 and used the altar to the unknown god to convert the greeks.

 

 

If i remember correct St Francis Xavier was famed for this with the indian brahmins . He read all there spiritual works and even dressed like them, to show he understood them. And he was well hated by some in the church ( i assume because they had never had much success in india.) but he converted thousands, some say even up to a million in a really short 10 year period, oh it wasn't only india he was like a super conduit of Gods grace to alot of asia too in that period. Than he carked it, as one would i assume after such heroic devotedness.

 

Onward christian souls.

JESUS iz LORD.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

I would love to have that fearless faith from one of the gospels of this week(or perhaps it was sundays.) where jesus said " no one can steal one of mine from me,because no one can steal from the father.." (words to that effect anyway.) To actually believe and live that decree whole heartedly. I only say this because i lack so much in this area of absolute abandon and trust in GOD.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye