Calvin's Allure

[ICTHUS]

This is an entry from my blog awhile back. I was wondering if any former Calvinists could identify with how I feel...or...psychoanalyze me..or something.

[quote]I feel as if I am running from an inevitable fate. I know at least one friend who will be horrified by what I am about to say. Nevertheless, I must say it. As Martin Luther said, before the Diet of Worms where he was excommunicated from the Roman Church "Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me!"

I feel as if Gods hand has been chasing me, opressing me, ever since I began to debate with John Roberson, Presbyterian seminarian at Texas A&M University. The Reformed faith simply makes too much sense to me. It calls my heart, the nagging simplicity of it.

God chose me from before the foundation of the Earth and has called me, to be liberated from spiritual death. His indelible grace has resurrected my imprisoned spirit, and Christ's righteousness now clothes me by faith alone in His mercy and forebearance. What a wondrous Gospel! I cannot see how I shall remain within Rome any longer. I have denied this conclusion for too long.

I'm writing a letter to Scott Hahn, to see if he can shed some insight on this issue for me. But honestly, the more advanced I get in defending the Roman Church, the more I become convinced that it is horribly, greviously wrong on many, many issues.

I wish now that I had never been confirmed, or that I had at least waited until my issues were resolved.

If I end up leaving the Church of Rome, I know at least one person who will be heartbroken and disappointed. She is the person who is quite possibly the best friend I have ever had. The "Diet of Worms" that I must stand before, should my conscience force me to the conclusion that the Church of Rome has gone astray, is not a panel of churchmen nor a papal bull of excommunication, as it was for Luther - it is the heart of a young woman who has prayed her heart out for me since the beginning of our relationship. This Diet, should I be required to face it - or rather, her, is infinitely more personal and will be infinitely more painful than the Diet of Worms that Luther faced, since I will be hurting a person who has shown me nothing but the mercy and kindness of Christ Himself since the beginning of our friendship. But if my conscience forces me to that conclusion, then face that Diet of Worms I must. She alone must decide whether she will excommunicate me from her company, and I do not fault her for doing so if that is her decision.

[CENTER]And Can It Be That I Should Gain?

By Charles Wesley
Verses 3-6

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

Still the small inward voice I hear,
That whispers all my sins forgiven;
Still the atoning blood is near,
That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.
I feel the life His wounds impart;
I feel the Savior in my heart.

No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
[/CENTER][/quote]

I refer to one of my friends, above, whom it would hurt immensely if I left the Church. These doubts I have are recurring, and persistent, and usually occur whenever I try to defend the Faith from the attacks of my numerous Reformed accquaintances and friends - two of whom are Seminarians.

Edited May 27, 2004 by ICTHUS

[Ellenita]

Icthus, re- read your own signature! It is difficult to know why you feel leaving the Catholic church with all her tradition handed down from the apostles for a doctrine based on one man's personal interpretation of an incomplete bible would lead you to be 'liberated from spiritual death'.

It's interesting that you use the words 'oppressing me' to describe God's hand chasing you. Oppression is a very negative concept...the definition of which is 'to subjugate by cruelty, to force, to afflict or torment'. I see no evidence of God oppressing anyone, either in what we know of Him from the bible or from Catholic church tradition - in fact quite the reverse!

Of course there are forces that would seek to draw you away from the Truth - we must be on our guard constantly.....

A wise move might be to talk to your priest about the questions you are having - it may take time for Scott Hahn to reply to your letter as he is undoubtedly very much in demand!

You are in my prayers....

[Sojourner]

Icthus,
I grew up in a staunchly Calvinist home, and was steeped in the doctrines of the Reformation from the moment of my birth. I can remember Bible Studies where "What does Calvin say about this?" was a common refrain.

Calvinism does have an intellectual allure; there is a coherence to this system of belief that I've not found in any other Protestant church. In fact, if I weren't a Catholic, this is the denomination I would be (and where I was before converting), because among Protestant churches intellectually there simply aren't any other choices that I could realistically live with.

As I was considering Catholicism, there were several things that convinced me that what I'd been given as a Calvinist youngin' was just not the fullness and beauty of the Truth.

First, there's the issue of authority, which early on in my exploration I pinned as being a central issue on which Calvinism stands or falls. Ellenita hits this squarely in her first paragraph. The thing is, Calvin can say whatever he wants to say, but who is he? Calvin is one man, a fallible man, who pits himself against centuries of church doctrine and belief with his personal interpretation of Scripture. What hubris!

Emotions are DEFINITELY and important part of faith, don't get me wrong, but choose carefully the rock on which you place those emotions. The church Calvin founded "moved by the Holy Spirit" has shattered into hundreds of tiny bits. The Church Christ founded is still One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

The second area in which I had problems with Calvinist teaching is that there is generally no understanding of mystery and beauty and the vital roles these play in our spirituality. When I started looking into the Catholic Church, I found I was starved for mystery, and for a beauty. Calvinist thought is quite simple, yes, but in its simplicity it cuts out the richness and depth of faith the the True Church has preserved.

I would encourage you to sink deep into the faith you have been confirmed in. This faith that we practice is the faith our fathers practiced before us ... such a rich and deep heritage that John Calvin cannot give. I choose a Church built on the sacrifice of Christ, rather than on the pride of Calvin. I choose a faith nurtured and protected through the centuries and guaranteed protection into the future, rather than a faith defined by Calvin's intellect, alluring though it may be.

[i]Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders.[/i]

[Mickey's_Girl]

Sojourner can definitely speak more to this (and I think she did so, quite eloquently!) than I can, since I'm a Christian of the more Arminian variety.

In any case, let a life-long born-again (since the age of 4) Protestant add some encouragement. I know what you are saying about the feeling of "freedom"...I've felt it, too. I love that Charles Wesley hymn. And I can definitely see (as much as I can from the outside of both) where Catholicism would seem difficult and over-much compared to the simplicity of Calvinism.

One of the reasons that I'm investigating Catholicism is because my own faith background (Pentecostal) has seemed a) somewhat empty in the last few years, b) intellectually less defensible than Catholicism, and c) devoid of symbolism, which I'm coming to think of as more and more important.

I don't have an answer for you, because I'm on a strange pilgrimage myself. But please know that I'm praying for you.

God bless,

MG

[ICTHUS]

Sojourner,

I'm interested mostly in the soteriological aspects of Calvinism. Why did you come to repudiate the Reformed doctrines of grace?

[Sojourner]

[quote] Sojourner,

I'm interested mostly in the soteriological aspects of Calvinism. Why did you come to repudiate the Reformed doctrines of grace?  [/quote]

It doesn't matter what Calvin says about soteriology if he doesn't have the underlying authority to back up his claims. Early on in my study of the Catholic church, I kept coming back to the question of authority. It's on this question of authority that the Catholic Church's claims rise or fall, and it's on this same question that Calvin's soteriological claims rise or fall.

That's why I say you've got to have emotions guided by intellect -- if the foundational elements aren't there, if Calvin doesn't have any footing on which to base his claims on justification, then it really doesn't matter how awesome they sound and how freeing they may appear. Just like it might sound great to hear that I can rule a planet in the afterlife, but that's just a pretty dream if Joseph Smith has no authority on which to base his claims.

Now, I'm really not qualified to get into an in-depth debate on justification, but Scott Hahn on his site posts what I think is a really good comparison of Calvinistic and Catholic teachings on this topic, which you may find helpful: [url="http://www.mindspring.com/~jdarcy/files/justify.htm"]Justification Debate[/url]

[ICTHUS]

So really then, you repudiated the Reformed doctrines of grace, even though they might have been true? Doesn't that seem like a silly proposition?

[Mickey's_Girl]

Hmm...looking in from the outside, can I butt in? (Feel free to ignore me if you like.) For me (not being Catholic) the whole question of "who has the right teaching" about any particular issue comes down to this:

Catholicism claims to have The Truth. So the first question (before you can discuss any individual possible Truths) is, DOES the Catholic church have the authority to say "We have The Truth."

It's sort of a catch-22. I don't want to be like some of the people on this board who say things like "The Church says so; the Church is right" without actually addressing the question. That's annoying, and not fair to you.

But here's the thing: if you're considering actually leaving the church over this, then perhaps it *is* time to consider the authority question.

??

I can't make that decision for you, of course. But to me, authority (whether yes or no) seems the central issue first.

I've been praying for you, Icthus, and I'll continue to pray. God bless.

MG

[ICTHUS]

The authority issue...

Well, I have always been distrustful of authority. If the Church's teachings do not line up with the Word, then they cannot be true. Scripture reveals that we are justified once and have peace with God by faith - PEACE with God (Romans 5:1), not just a temporary cease fire until our next mortal sin. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and if we fall away from that it means that our faith was not really genuine faith at all, but faking it to please men.

[Aloysius]

that's crazy logic, judging the reality of one's faith by whether or not they end up falling away later. that's faulty logic.

we can run away from that peace with God if we want. now, i will not run away, i refuse to run away. but if someone were to run away, we can't claim they never had that peace with God. how can we judge it that way? it doesn't make sense, ICTHUS, it just doesn't make sense. ppl with the same level of faith as St. Francis of Assis have fallen away i'm sure, and that doesn't mean the didn't have the same level of faith as St. Francis when they were faithful, it means they rejected that faith they once held.

it's just, i donno, insanely illogical to just believe those who fall away didn't have true faith to begin with.

[ICTHUS]

But I don't get how a person can be justified more than once..

[Aloysius]

we continue to become more and more justified, right?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 31 2004, 12:31 PM'] we continue to become more and more justified, right? [/quote]
Not according to Scripture, it would seem - justification is once for all. Sanctification continues, however, after justification, and we continue to die to sin in being sanctified.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aloysius']we can run away from that peace with God if we want. now, i will not run away, i refuse to run away. but if someone were to run away, we can't claim they never had that peace with God. how can we judge it that way?  it doesn't make sense, ICTHUS, it just doesn't make sense. ppl with the same level of faith as St. Francis of Assis have fallen away i'm sure, and that doesn't mean the didn't have the same level of faith as St. Francis when they were faithful, it means they rejected that faith they once held.

it's just, i donno, insanely illogical to just believe those who fall away didn't have true faith to begin with. [/quote]

The Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ according to St. John

Chapter 6, beginning at verse 60

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[5] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." [b]For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." [/b]66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

It is abundantly clear to me from this passage that THOSE WHO FALL AWAY were never with them to begin with!

[ICTHUS]

Also, to quote Calvinist apologist Luke Sneeringer

[quote]This idea you have of maintaining your own salvation flows from a lack of understanding of justification. We have peace with God (Romans 5:1) because Christ has already paid the price for our sin. If Christ has paid the price for all our sin, what sin can we commit that would cause us to lose peace with God? There is none! Christ has removed our sin from us (1 John 2:2). He has granted to us repentance (2 Tim. 2:25). That is why Paul said that he was confident that Christ will complete His work in us (Philippians 1:6). This is why Galatians 3 and Romans 4 teach that righteousness is by faith, not by works. If righteousness cannot be attained by works, then it cannot be lost by lack of works.[/quote]