Do Charisms Fade With Time?

[To Jesus Through Mary]

Double post 

Edited April 16, 2013 by To Jesus Through Mary

[To Jesus Through Mary]

I would be careful with this line of thinking. We have no way of knowing whether the sisters in these congregations feel proud or see themselves as being part of something prestigious. It is also not right to judge their work on the basis of the sheer number of poor people they can reach. Mother Teresa knew that she was reaching only an infinitesimal number of Kolkata's most destitute people, but as she put it, "Our work is a drop in the ocean, but without it, I think the ocean would be less." Jesus did teach that the one is as important as the ninety-nine. It isn't right to look at the people whom a congregation ministers to and ask why they aren't caring for the very poorest - because people whom to you look as if they need no help might have very great needs. Material poverty is not the only problem out there.

 

Go too far down this path, and you risk becoming like the people who look at cloistered communities and say, "But why don't you run a school or a hospital? It would be so much better." It's a very utilitarian approach, and it turns religious life into a form of efficient social work with precise targets to meet. From there it becomes too easy to castigate religious for being unfaithful to their charisms. I am not prepared to do that. It seems to be a sport amongst some discerners, even among ones who make a show of being very observant and traditional - the observance doesn't extend so far as leaving these judgments to the only One who can know. It would be better if we concentrated on fidelity to our own callings rather than wondering if other people are living up to theirs.

 

As for a community ceasing to call themselves consecrated/religious - they can't do that for the simple reason that they are vowed men and women. Suggesting that they should cease to be religious if they don't fit a certain standard standard in the same way that secular employees get demoted if they don't fulfill their employer's expectations misses out on the whole spiritual significance of vowed life.

I wanted to prop this again. Well said. 

[BarbTherese]

Perhaps a religious order with a certain charism, founded for that purpose, may appear to not be living out that charism - but the funds they earn are going to the financially impoverished and they embrace personally a quite radical type of poverty in their own lives.  I know of such a religious order personally - but I don't think it right nor needed to name them and a betrayal of trust to do so.  Also, we do know today that what we need to address is the root cause of poverty if we are going to address poverty per se adequately and in some lasting way.  This takes education often and sometimes education can bring with it a certain status In both The Church and society and perhaps a healthy income - the primary focus can still remain - and is - on love of the poor.  A charism is one thing, incidentals flowing from that charism is something else.

[God's Beloved]

In general from the above posts it seems most of you are from the developed countries, so you don't have first hand experience of Institutes of consecrated life in Southern and Eastern parts of the world.

 

It is healthy to critique any institute in a forum where something can be done about the issue. This place is not meant for me to give names and locations .Besides, we all wish to keep some amount of anonymity. I have published material for the reform of consecrated life . Its not only me but the Conferences of these Institutes themselves acknowledge that their vocations are over in traditionally fertile localities where women have achieved better socio-economic conditions. Vocations come mainly from financially under-developed localities with unrefined motivations. Institutes live much much much richer lives compared to their neighbors and people they serve. Also the services they offer are available by institutes founded by people of other religions whose quality of service is comparable to the christian institutes and sometimes even better .The crises faced by Inst. of consecrated life in the west  have reached the developing countries. Denial does not help anyone.Another problem is the abuse of consecrated women by clergy in these parts of the world.

 

As i said , this is not the forum to discuss details. If anyone is seriously concerned about the source of information, I'll give the references thru personal communication to respect the identities.

 

Regarding a comment that the example of Jane does not speak about a community being founded ,  for your information , consecrated life  is an umbrella of many different types of vocations. [ ref to Vita Consecrata] . Monastic life,  Virgins, Widows, Hermits, Inst of contemplative life, Apostolic Religious, Secular Institutes, Societies of Apostolic life etc.

 

So  the Charisms in the Church community are given to individuals and groups which need not form a Religious community. There are vocations whose community is their parish or diocese and whose members need not live together with common rule of life or works. So the discussion regarding whether Charisms  fade with time applies to all these vocations . We need to look out of the box . Religious life is only one of the many forms of Consecrated life in the Church.

 

 

 

[BarbTherese]

In general from the above posts it seems most of you are from the developed countries, so you don't have first hand experience of Institutes of consecrated life in Southern and Eastern parts of the world.

 

It is healthy to critique any institute in a forum where something can be done about the issue. This place is not meant for me to give names and locations .Besides, we all wish to keep some amount of anonymity. I have published material for the reform of consecrated life . Its not only me but the Conferences of these Institutes themselves acknowledge that their vocations are over in traditionally fertile localities where women have achieved better socio-economic conditions. Vocations come mainly from financially under-developed localities with unrefined motivations. Institutes live much much much richer lives compared to their neighbors and people they serve. Also the services they offer are available by institutes founded by people of other religions whose quality of service is comparable to the christian institutes and sometimes even better .The crises faced by Inst. of consecrated life in the west  have reached the developing countries. Denial does not help anyone.Another problem is the abuse of consecrated women by clergy in these parts of the world.

 

As i said , this is not the forum to discuss details. If anyone is seriously concerned about the source of information, I'll give the references thru personal communication to respect the identities.

 

Regarding a comment that the example of Jane does not speak about a community being founded ,  for your information , consecrated life  is an umbrella of many different types of vocations. [ ref to Vita Consecrata] . Monastic life,  Virgins, Widows, Hermits, Inst of contemplative life, Apostolic Religious, Secular Institutes, Societies of Apostolic life etc.

 

So  the Charisms in the Church community are given to individuals and groups which need not form a Religious community. There are vocations whose community is their parish or diocese and whose members need not live together with common rule of life or works. So the discussion regarding whether Charisms  fade with time applies to all these vocations . We need to look out of the box . Religious life is only one of the many forms of Consecrated life in the Church.

 

 

The Order with which I am familiar, no longer does their original work, as it is true that the need for it in Australia and even the ability in Australia to carry it out no longer exists.  Their senior schools are now serviced by  lay teachers. Here in Australia, however, since their charism is the love of the poor of all kinds, they are embracing the disabled and disabled mentally ill (for two only).  They are also embracing certain needs overseas.  They certainly embrace poverty in their private lives, though sadly to me it is not a poverty that is overtly "seen to be".

 

Personally, I think that there are many reasons, complex reasons, why religious life here in the West seems to be in decline; however, there is nothing at all to state that this is a constant and fixed position into our future.   We trust in The Lord and His Love of His Church and His constant guidance of us.

 

but the Conferences of these Institutes themselves acknowledge that their vocations are over in traditionally fertile localities where women have achieved better socio-economic conditions

I think that if a religious order feels and states that their vocations are over, then they probably will be.  Truly, we do not know what is going to happen in the future.  I can agree that with a dire lack of vocations hard decisions may need to be made.  If a religious order decides to 'fold' and accept no more vocations if they should receive them, or they are asked by an appropriate Church authority to 'fold', then this is a different matter.  But for religious vocations in the future, we have no idea at this point - only some logical conclusions perhaps where hard decisions need to be made and this speaks to Faith. Faith itself transcends reason.

What might happen is that religious life adopts a different expression similar to Secular Institutes and their quite radical departure from the norm of a consecrated life (i.e. religious life). To my knowledge, secular institutes were given public consecrated status due to pressure on Rome.  Rome assessed things (tested the spirit) and decided to include secular institutes in publicly consecrated life.  But it was a quite radical departure from the norm very much as when enclosed religious life was widened into religious life with a mission in the secular community outside an enclosure.

Who knows, consecrated life may embrace something new and radical yet again.  Religious LIfe as we now know it might receive an inflow of vocations in the future, or it might die out completely in the west. All this is speculation. The future is The Lord's and for the best we can be confident.  We take our cues and clues from logic and reason which can speak to Faith.  Faith itself transcends reason.

 

Regarding a comment that the example of Jane does not speak about a community being founded , for your information , consecrated life is an umbrella of many different types of vocations. [ ref to Vita Consecrata] . Monastic life, Virgins, Widows, Hermits, Inst of contemplative life, Apostolic Religious, Secular Institutes, Societies of Apostolic life etc.

 

Vita Consecrata also mentions grouped in with publicly consecrated lives, those who quite privately dedicate their lives to God and in thanksgiving for them  :)  I did presuppose that this was included in your "etc."  I may be wrong, as no statistics seem to be available, but vocations to this quite private dedication in a truly hidden way of life in the midst of the community in a secular way of life seems to be increasing or at least more spoken about openly than ever before.  It is not something new, it has always been a potential in The Church - and from such a private dedication in the early Church, religious life was born. Private dedication has born beautiful and abundant fruit in the past. The Church today affirms most strongly that those in secular life in the community have a very important mission and are in the forefront of The Church embedded as they are in the secular community in every way and as leaven in the mix.

[beatitude]

In Rumer Godden's beautiful powerful novel In This House of Brede, based on life at Stanbrook Abbey, a servant's daughter enters the monastery in order to escape the sense of inferiority that was instilled into her through life in a harsh class system. Giving her life history to her new abbess, many years after her entrance, she explains, "That was why I came. It wasn't why I stayed."

 

People can and do enter religious life with very mixed motives. No one is pure. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to developing countries - in the so-called 'developed world' we have people who are very much caught up in the glamour and exoticism of religious life (even though they themselves might not see it) and are drawn in principally by a romantic attraction. I know a Carmelite nun who was like that at the beginning; she was all about the habit and wouldn't even consider communities whose sisters didn't look just like St Therese. Then there are people who focus too much on the apostolate, seeing it as like a career move and looking for the place that would suit their personal aspirations. We shouldn't worry about this. God knows we're not perfect. Purity of intention is the consequence of a life spent trying to live the gospel, not something we necessarily have right at the start. We should just pray for ourselves and for each other to have that purity.

 

I live in a country (Palestine) where a significant proportion of the population are below the poverty line. In Gaza in particular, there is a lot of food instability; some 80% of the population are in receipt of UN food aid. The religious sisters in Gaza are undeniably better off than their neighbours in material terms. But I think we would be making a grave mistake if we translated holy poverty as living on food aid in order to be like the others in the neighbourhood. There is a significant difference between living out poverty in the religious sense and living in destitution, which is degrading and not something for anyone to aspire to. By this argument Mother Teresa was not fulfilling her mission to the poor because her sisters had somewhere clean and safe to sleep, and they weren't spending the night in the gutter. An attempt to try and be exactly like the poorest may stem from shame (misplaced pride at work?) rather than a sense of humility. Gospel poverty doesn't mean copying the enforced lifestyles of the most destitute people, it means detaching yourself from material goods, seeing yourself as a custodian rather than owner (which makes you always ready to share, as you know that nothing you have is really yours), and living as simply as possible in order to try and make things better for everyone.

 

Are there religious who are being unfaithful to this? Undeniably so. But the same could be said for married couples, priests, single people - we none of us live up to the gospel imperatives all the time. I don't see how critiquing the fidelity of religious sisters when we are not even religious sisters ourselves is going to achieve anything, because the only one who can ensure faithfulness to a calling is the one living it. The most the rest of us can do is to pray and provide encouragement. And is this encouraging? You do not want to provide details of the communities you're talking about (which I'm glad about) for the sake of their anonymity, but at the same time you are prepared to have a vague hypothetical discussion about their supposed unfaithfulness to their charisms, on the grounds that 'it is healthy to critique any institute in a forum where something can be done about the issue'. I don't see how an Internet forum of discerners is capable of addressing alleged infidelity in communities whose names we don't (and shouldn't) even know, and whose inner workings we wouldn't be privy to even if we did know the names. The most productive thing for people in our position is to pray. Anything else starts to feel like gossip.

Edited April 20, 2013 by beatitude

[BarbTherese]

I liked your comments about applicants not having the highest motivation in entering religious life, but through formation, time and Grace, they dont stay for these reasons.  In fact, I agreed with all your comments.  One point, the religious order to which I referred while embracing a quite strict literal poverty in their personal lives, it is hidden and not obvious to those outside their life, rather the opposite.  I think to a certain degree were I entering religious life, I would seek a community where poverty to a certain degree was also a public witness.  I dont know, however, what the responsibility of religious might be to witness publicly to their vows - or if they are to be simply lived. Certainly, Chastity and Obedience have a public face and witness, but not Poverty necessarily in actuality.

I also think that Poverty can be misunderstood,  Certainly, through detaching themselves in many ways, including the material, the objective is poverty of spirit.  Just as Chastity and Obedience have a positive goal rather than their negative aspect.  The negative...... and postive aspects of Chastity and Obedience is a public witness in Love of God above all things (Chastity) and in Love of His Will in all things (Obedience). 

Certainly, if religious do not have nourishing food and adequate shelter, they would not be able possibly to serve as they do.  "Nourishing" and "adequate" are my key words.

I am continually reflecting on religious life and the vows as they can speak to my own vocation, while I am not a religious rather a lay person by personal decision.

 

Edited April 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

 

I also think that Poverty can be misunderstood,  Certainly, through detaching themselves in many ways, including the material, the objective is poverty of spirit.  Just as Chastity and Obedience have a positive goal rather than their negative aspect.  The negative...... and postive aspects of Chastity and Obedience is a public witness in Love of God above all things (Chastity) and in Love of His Will in all things (Obedience). 

Certainly, if religious do not have nourishing food and adequate shelter, they would not be able possibly to serve as they do.  "Nourishing" and "adequate" are my key words.

I am continually reflecting on religious life and the vows as they can speak to my own vocation, while I am not a religious rather a lay person by personal decision.

 

 

Good point Barb.

 

I am afraid that this will be a bit of a hit and run sort of post as I don't want to get into any debates here about the vow of poverty, but I did just post a comment about this on our blog under Ask a Saint - Monastic Poverty http://carmeliteswolverhampton.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/ask-saint-monastic-poverty.html

 

 

The thing is that monastic poverty isn't usually what the world thinks of as material poverty, although some charisms do stress this aspect very strongly (the Poor Clares and other Franciscan communities come to mind). For Carmelites, poverty really means a complete surrender of self, and material possessions are only a small part of this surrender. One of the things that I find hardest to give up is the right to privacy, which is a great act of poverty for me. When one has to ask permission for the simplest of things, and there are no locks on cell doors or even toilet doors (if it's closed, it's occupied), then one begins to understand a little bit about spiritual poverty. My life as an Australian bush hermit was definitely poorer in the material possessions (and sense of material security as far as rent, clothes, food etc goes) than it in in Carmel, and yet here I feel more stripped and naked than I ever did living in material poverty, simply because I cannot make my own decisions and choices, cannot assume a right to privacy and must ask for even embarrassing things from another person.

 

The sole purpose of Carmelite poverty is empty oneself of self, and thus to make room for God's indwelling presence and love. This type of poverty can be a lot harder in many ways than material poverty, especially because it is voluntary, and there is always the temptation to say 'Why am I doing this?' But the more vulnerable a Carmelite nun can be to God, the more efficacious her prayers are for the world. And she can also enter into a sharing of the world's poverty, not simply through a denial of material things (although this is a part of Carmel) but in an understanding of the nature of poverty itself. Mother Teresa of Calcutta saw that the material poverty of the Third World countries, while oppressive and demeaning was not as diminishing to the soul as the spiritual poverty of the more industrialised countries. Carmelites pray for both these forms of poverty by living out both of them in our charism - material poverty through sharing all possessions in common and spiritual poverty through the emptying of self and sense of entitlement.

[BarbTherese]

Hi nunsense..............heart went down a little when I sighted your name, but then I thought "Nahhh, I reckon she is able to post just now".  I am convinced this is the big IT!!! :) And delighted to see that my second thought was correct.  Thank you for your Carmelite insight - and of course therefore absolutely profound! :wave:  Thomas Merton wrote (towards the end of his early period before he went awry) that "contemplatives should share the fruits of their contemplation in the parlour" - I think if may have been in Contemplation in a World of Action.  And what a parlour the internet can be!  We can't see you, nor do we have a turn - and crammed into the parlour is the whole wide world.  A great benefit over and above a REAL parlour, is that one can consider what one has written and edit and edit and edit to one's heart's content before hitting "POST" - and in my case sometimes done too lightly.

God bless and I hope we will know your clothing day and also get some pics - you mean so much to me and so many on Phatmass here and we have followed your journey with admiration and with prayers that our own Faith will withstand any storm.  Keep on keeping on and God ever bless you richly with all Carmelite blessings.

Edited April 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[AccountDeleted]

Hi nunsense..............heart went down a little when I sighted your name, but then I thought "Nahhh, I reckon she is able to post just now".  I am convinced this is the big IT!!! :) And delighted to see that my second thought was correct.  Thank you for your Carmelite insight - and of course therefore absolutely profound! :wave:  Thomas Merton wrote (towards the end of his early period before he went awry) that "contemplatives should share the fruits of their contemplation in the parlour" - I think if may have been in Contemplation in a World of Action.  And what a parlour the internet can be!  We can't see you, nor do we have a turn - and crammed into the parlour is the whole wide world.  A great benefit over and above a REAL parlour, is that one can consider what one has written and edit and edit and edit to one's heart's content before hitting "POST" - and in my case sometimes done too lightly.

God bless and I hope we will know your clothing day and also get some pics - you mean so much to me and so many on Phatmass here and we have followed your journey with admiration and with prayers that our own Faith will withstand any storm.  Keep on keeping on and God ever bless you richly with all Carmelite blessings.

 

 

Sorry Barb - didn't mean to cause you any anxiety! :) It is Sunday, free time, and although I do limit myself to what I post and how often, I have permissions in my work that allow me to make certain decisions regarding when and what to post online. I try to limit myself to the blog, but I also post a status update and tweet with a link to a new blog post.

 

We still have a couple of months until Clothing, but I will be sure to post about it in the blog and put in a link here. I have been greatful for the support and prayers of phatmassers, especially those in VS, so how could I forget you all now?

 

As for the parlour analogy, yes, that is how we are seeing things more these days. I do Skype to my family because they are unable to come to the parlour and after all, it is just like a combination phone call and parlour visit. And the sisters now are being allowed some freedoms with regard to email and Internet, but for most of them, it simply isn't relevant to their life or work. They did take time to check out our the website and blog because our Prioress thought they should know just what it is that I am doing! :) As the webmaster and blogmaster, I also have a certain responsibility to keep informed about things because I am able to convey some news back to the sisters for them to pray about. The Boston marathon bombing is a recent example - although the newspaper had some info, it wasn't up to date, so I passed on on what I read to the community and we were able to include everyone concerned with this event in our prayers.

 

Over the next two weeks, in two different groups, some of the sisters will be leaving the enclosure to attend a meeting with other Carmels and the Father General of the Order - and this should bring some interesting persectives on how to live out our Carmelite charism in today's world. I am one of the one's staying behind to mind the fort so to speak, but only because I volunteered. It will be very quiet then - in the second week only 4 able bodied nuns (and our elderly bed-ridden sister) will be left behind. It will be a very modified Office, that's for sure! :)

 

Sorry - didn't mean to hijack this thread about charisms. :shock:

[BarbTherese]

Apologies for this brief hijack too and thank you for all the  news.  Nunsense. :) :)  :) I have just sent you an email (not too long), Sister, via the sponsachristi email address on your profile and on a personal matter. Carmelite prayers please and any phatmassers in your kindness too please.  Will fill phatmass in at a laterpoint when I know more.  No concerns about replying to my email.  Stock standard instructions to my OCD's - no need to answer - just please keep praying.  Amen (Let it be)

Do ensure that your community grasps just what a gift the internet iis and it's vast reach - and that those of us out here hunger for - and the whole wide world in fact absolutely needs, the fruits of Carmelite contemplation.  Practical, down to earth and profound insight into reality and Reality, which you displayed here long before Wolverhampton OCD received the Grace of recognition. :dance3:

Edited April 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

I am only a most recent tweeter, I will try to work out how to follow yours and also your blog.  I try TRY to limit time on the computer as it's toy value has gone completely thank goodness, so no real virtue I know.  If God is happy with our desires and efforts moreso than any actual success and His anyway (Tom Merton), then my hope soars, altho "hell is paved with good intentions" concerned me until I woke up it aint Biblical and it aint Church teaching and it aint a saint's thoughts either and I breathed out again.  :saint2:

[BarbTherese]

Oh dear, trust Google.  Did a check to find who said "hell is paved with good intentions".  Apparently both St. Bernard of Clairvaux and St Frances de Sales both said it!  Highly unlikely Tom Merton will be canonized.  Mmmm......... got some thinking and praying to do methinks.  Ahhh well, ignorance was indeed bliss for a while. :hehe2:   But brief reflection tells me that since all success is a work of Grace and thus a gift of The Lord ("give success to the work of our hands" Psalm LOTH) and is sound Catholic theology............mmmm..........prayer, ponder. Ajh well.......further reflection........... I can fall back on dear St Therese who said that in Heaven her hands would be absolutely empty, but (since she understood profoundly her haptism and her vocation), she would ask The Lord to fill them with His Merits (which through Baptism and in Grace, are ours).....................while my empty hands will be dirty hands full of good intentions gone wrong.................but The Lord is profoundly humble and will not mind and shall brush aside (His Mother with her spiritual duster shall do it for him) the dirt and replace it with His Merits...................

:hijack:  ..............back to the subject of the thread...............promise!

Edited April 21, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[God's Beloved]

When we discuss about Charisms in the Church , we perhaps need to understand the characteristics of each form of consecrated life in general. Below is a list similar to what is described in Vita Consecrata , with updates according to contemporary times.

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_25031996_vita-consecrata_en.html

 

 

The Charism given to the Church in history [ its Qualities]

 

Virgin-martyrs

Widows

Hermits

Monastics

Inst. of Contemplative life

Apostolic religious

Secular Institutes/Missionary Institutes

Societies of apostolic life

Lay Associations / Ecclesial Movements

Private vows

New communities including married couples, families etc.

 

 

Few reflections on the identities of some of the above vocations or Charisms :

1. Virgin-martyrs : earliest form of consecrated life , mostly young girls/ women converts , some became martyrs for their faith/ virginity

2. Monastic life began when persecution ceased and Christianity became an institutional religion. Men and Women moved to the desert  and formed communities to embrace another form of martyrdom.

3. Apostolic religious life is the commonest form known and discussed on this forum

4.Secular Institutes : members live alone or in community ,profess evangelical counsels , secular careers /professions , leaven in the world , identity usually hidden.

5.Missionary Institutes are similar to Secular Institutes except that their vocation while lived in the world is not hidden but expressed more publicly as far as i know.

6.Lay Associations : members live alone or in community , private commitments , the bonds are with their institute and not with the Church authorities , but their associations are recognized and statutes approved by the Church

Similarly there are Ecclesial movements open to celibates, couples, children etc. but usually the Core group consists of members committed to live the evangelical counsels as celibates

7.There are those who make private vows.

8. New communities similar to the ecclesial movements : new forms emerging where married couples together commit to live the evangelical counsels , youth make commitment until marriage etc. etc.

 

 

There is great variety of Consecrated life in the Church. On this forum mainly relgious life seems to be discussed and i think most religious on this forum are of more traditional mindset.

 

We can see the history of Consecrated life , how it developed into the various forms according to the signs of the times. So Charisms in general do seem to fade with time. e.g. monasticism is very rare compared to several centuries ago. Religious life seems to be giving way to Secular and Missionary Institutes and Ecclesial movements.

 

The above are reflections. Please excuse me for inaccuracies if present . More accurate info will be welcome. Hope  there is focus on the topic of  Do Charisms fade with time etc. as mentioned in the first post.