Is This Heretical?

[Luigi]

I would want to know the whole context - protect islam from WHAT? Did he mean preserve Islam as a religion that promotes peace, and want St. John to protect it from becoming an excuse to blow things up and kill people?

 

Sentences occur in larger chunks of discourse. The larger chunk of John Paul's discourse may shed light on what he intended, better than the words lifted out of their larger context.

 

 

 

 

Besides, I have not yet been named to the Spanish Inquisition, so I have no commission from Rome to decide who or what is heretical. I'll leave it to the experts.

[Basilisa Marie]

It's really not that complicated my dear, but maybe it's because of the speaker of those words that we find ourselves hesitating?

 

No, you're wrong, it IS a technical term that is often casually thrown around by people who have no appreciation for theological nuance or history. 

[Basilisa Marie]

As far as the statement goes, it completely depends on the context and what the speaker means. 

 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day destroy Catholicism? 
 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day grow in understanding of the truth and one day come to accept Christ as savior, and in the meantime help Muslims live as virtuous people bearing witness to the God of Abraham? 

 

 

[mortify]

Maybe I'm the only one here who finds your method of discourse increasingly frustrating. Just say what you mean man. Is Bl. John Paul II a heretic in your eyes? Talk straight bro. What's the purpose of this discussion, and don't be coy about it plz.

 

The truth is I've been struggling with inconsistencies for some time now. Like everyone I believe in Papal infallibility and the justice in obeying our spiritual authority but at the same time I see and hear things that leave me utterly confused. The only principle I can follow is to calmly and rationally investigate the evidence and consider the possibility that I have been wrong about a lot of things. A lot of you are bringing John Paul II the man into the picture, I'd rather focus on this statement. If you want to read the context, it can be read here:

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html

 

Here is an excerpt:

 

"God bless you all! God bless Jordan!

May Saint John Baptist protect Islam and all the people of Jordan, and all who partecipated in this celebration, a memorable celebration. I’m very grateful to all of you.

Thank you very much"

 

I'm just at a complete loss with this comment. Islam is a religion that denies the divinity of our Lord and rejects that he was even crucified. Historically it has made a wasteland of Christendom. What's concerning is that he didn't say "may the Muslims be protected," i.e. the people, he said may the religion be protected. Am I wrong for being confused here? If you want my persona opinion it's that this statement is suspect of heresy and scandalous. You don't ask Heaven to protect a false religion, you don't go venerating their Holy Book. If anyone can rationally convince me that I'm wrong here I'd really appreciate it because I'd very much like continuing in the religion of my ancestors.

[mortify]

The rule of prayer establishes the rule of faith, and the saints most certainly do not, nor can they ever, protect things that are unorthodox. Should Pope John Paul II have said a prayer like the one quoted (if it is accurate)? No, because such a prayer promotes the error of theological indifferentism.

 

Thank you my Eastern Catholic friend, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and although I'd very much like to make it so that such a statement was never made, it was.

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000321_wadi-al-kharrar_en.html

[mortify]

As far as the statement goes, it completely depends on the context and what the speaker means. 

 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day destroy Catholicism? 
 

Does it mean that John the Baptist protect Islam so that Islam may one day grow in understanding of the truth and one day come to accept Christ as savior, and in the meantime help Muslims live as virtuous people bearing witness to the God of Abraham? 

 

My dear, you are confusing Islam the religion with Muslims the people. Religions don't grow to one day understand the truth, people do. Islam is a false religion, plain and simple. The Quran explicitly rejects the divinity of Christ, explicitly rejects the crucifixion ever happening, explicitly sanctions waging war against Christians and Jews until we submit to Islamic dominion. Muslims are lost souls in need of evangelization and unity in the Church. This is how I understood Catholicism but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Islam is also efficacious with leading souls to heaven and in that case may it reign and grow until Kingdom come. Perhaps prior popes were just short sighted men, victims of their times, but now at least the modern world with its contemporary philosphies and science is able to make us know the real truth.

[Papist]

What is your point? I fail to see any benefits of your harping on this statement.

[Gabriela]

My dear, you are confusing Islam the religion with Muslims the people. Religions don't grow to one day understand the truth, people do. Islam is a false religion, plain and simple. The Quran explicitly rejects the divinity of Christ, explicitly rejects the crucifixion ever happening, explicitly sanctions waging war against Christians and Jews until we submit to Islamic dominion. Muslims are lost souls in need of evangelization and unity in the Church. This is how I understood Catholicism but perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps Islam is also efficacious with leading souls to heaven and in that case may it reign and grow until Kingdom come. Perhaps prior popes were just short sighted men, victims of their times, but now at least the modern world with its contemporary philosphies and science is able to make us know the real truth.

 

I believe your calling all the women you respond to "my dear" is perceived as offensive. You should stop that if you don't want to annoy people.

[mortify]

What is your point? I fail to see any benefits of your harping on this statement.

 

Truth is the point, and perhaps I have been mistaken. I take matters of faith seriously, call me naive.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I actually think what he said is rather vague, and could be taken in different ways. For that reason I think it was imprudent of him to say it, but a heretical interpretation does not necessarily follow from the text.

[Papist]

Truth is the point, and perhaps I have been mistaken. I take matters of faith seriously, call me naive.

 

So the Pope saying this effects truth how?  I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

[Apotheoun]

 I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

I tend to agree with you, because this comment about Islam certainly has had no impact upon my faith. I see it as just one of many inappropriate things done by Pope John Paul II during his long pontificate. But no one ever said that a pope will always act or speak in an appropriate manner. For example: Pope Stephen VI had the body of his predecessor, Pope Formosus, exhumed from its grave and put on trial in what has come to be known as the Cadaver Synod.

[Apotheoun]

I actually think what he said is rather vague, and could be taken in different ways. For that reason I think it was imprudent of him to say it, but a heretical interpretation does not necessarily follow from the text.

I would say that the "prayer" quoted in the poll is at face value unorthodox, but if you look at the Vatican's German language version of the pope's remarks in Jordan on 21 March 2000, the bizarre comment is not present. Quite honestly I think that the prepared remarks end somewhat earlier than the quoted comment, and that the quotation (as infelicitous as it is) is probably an off the cuff remark meant to convey diplomatic niceties to the King of Jordan and the Jordanian people. Should the pope have said it? No.

[mortify]

So the Pope saying this effects truth how?  I don't see how it should impact your faith. 

 

Can the Vicar of Christ preach heresy?

[Apotheoun]

Can the Vicar of Christ preach heresy?

Pope Benedict XII condemned his predecessor Pope John XXII for preaching heresy on the fate of the dead and the last judgment.