Feel Bad About Praying For Mary's Intercession, Help.

[Papist]

Dudemaster,

 

Would you feel bad asking me to pray for you?  Mary, with the saints in Heaven, are still in communion with Christ just as you and I are (with God's grace). In fact, even more so since they are in Heaven perfectly united in Christ. They are in a better position to pray for you than I am.  

[Dudemaster]

Thanks for replies. About 'true devotion to Mary', Nihil is right in his observation, i think. Tried to read it some time ago, but its just too much. Which is the part i do not get, because if something is good you're supposed to handle the extremity of it. Either you can say totus tuus, or you cant. In any case, 'true devotion' and other stuff (cf. fifthmariandogma.com) is the type of stuff that i find more or less offensive. I will check out the book by Sheen though, i like him alot, thanks for the recommendation!

 

On the picture of Mary, Nihil, thanks. Im into icons bigtime. It so happens i ordered a handpainted byzantine icon of Mary two weeks ago by an orthodox priest ive ordered from before. Cant wait for it to be finished, because ive found icons to be of great help and use before. 

 

Also, on eucharistic adoration Gregorii, its an insightful recommendation. Its probably my #1 favorite practice of RC spirituality. 

 

Tab'le and Papist; i am familiar with the rosary prayer. Thanks. My 'problem' doesnt come from its content, but the focus that it eventually will give to your spiritual life (as i wrote in the first post). Im not wondering about whether or not it is okay to say a hail mary or praying to a saint or so, but about the consequences that a consistent devotion to Mary does to your spiritual life over time. 

Some of you wrote about how a devotion to saints can be idolatrous. But i dont think i got an answer to when, or how, i know that my devotion to a saint (eg. Mary), is true or not. You say that it is then my fault, and not Mary's. Okay. But when do i err in this regard? Again, how do i know when i (and not Mary) messes up devotion to Mary? Perhaps she will straighten it out over time, as some of you implied.

[Guest Allie]

Here is an icon for you. You might find it worthwhile to look at it for a bit and meditate on what it communicates.
 

 
And for those of us who pray the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, here is a little response that we make at one point, I believe during Matins:
 
"O holy and immaculate Virgin, with what praises I shall extol thee, I know not; for he whom the heavens could not contain, rested in thy bosom."

 

This is my favorite Icon of the Blessed Virgin.  She is a sign that alwayspoints us to Jesus.  Always says: Do whatever He tells you.
 

[dUSt]

Is Mary preggos in that pic?

[DiscerningCatholic]

Let's get terms straight here: not praying TO; asking her intercession, i.e. asking her to pray for us. 

 

An artist does not get offended when you praise one of his works; Michelangelo wouldn't get offended if you gushed over the beauty of the Sistine Chapel; by complimenting his work, you are indirectly complimenting him. As is the case with Mary, God is not offended when we praise her or go to her for intercession; she takes our requests to Him, anyway. 

[Guest Allie]

Is Mary preggos in that pic?

 

Yes.  That is Our Lady of the Sign.  Often venerated during Advent.

[Ed Normile]

Praying to  Mary for Mary's sake? I do not see how that could happen, Mary's whole life was for her Son, it is why she is the Immaculate Conception. Any prayer to Mary asks her to intercede on behalf of us to her Son Jesus.

 

Dust was asking if the picture showed Mary preggers, it caused me to think of all the beautiful depictions of the pregnant Virgin Mary I have seen. They all seem to drive home the point that Jesus was bore in her womb, it reminds me of how close a mother is to her child. There was very little written about jesus before His ministry but one can not come to teh conclusion He was not a good child, he would have nursed at her breast and became close to her, he would have loved and honored His Mother. His mother would have never been scandalous or sinful, He would have no reason to not love her. It seems reasonable that a request fom His mother would be considered, and of course as we pray, His will be done. 

 

ed

[Adrestia]

Tab'le and Papist; i am familiar with the rosary prayer. Thanks. My 'problem' doesnt come from its content, but the focus that it eventually will give to your spiritual life (as i wrote in the first post). Im not wondering about whether or not it is okay to say a hail mary or praying to a saint or so, but about the consequences that a consistent devotion to Mary does to your spiritual life over time. 

Some of you wrote about how a devotion to saints can be idolatrous. But i dont think i got an answer to when, or how, i know that my devotion to a saint (eg. Mary), is true or not. You say that it is then my fault, and not Mary's. Okay. But when do i err in this regard? Again, how do i know when i (and not Mary) messes up devotion to Mary? Perhaps she will straighten it out over time, as some of you implied.

 

This quote helped me understand how devotion to Christ through Mary works.

 

Christ is the supreme Teacher, the revealer and the one revealed. It is not just a question of learning what he taught but of “learning him.” From the divine standpoint, the Spirit is the interior teacher who leads us to the full truth of Christ (see Jn 14:26; 15:26; 16:13).

But among creatures, no one knows Christ better than Mary; no one can introduce us to a profound knowledge of his mystery better than his Mother.  Contemplating the scenes of the rosary in union with Mary is a means of learning from her to “read” Christ, to discover his secrets and to understand his message.

As we contemplate each mystery of her Son’s life, she invites us to do as she did at the Annunciation: to ask humbly the questions which open us to the light, in order to end with the obedience of faith: “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to your word” (Lk 1:38).

Never as in the rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ! If Jesus, the one Mediator, is the Way of our prayer, then Mary, his purest and most transparent reflection, shows us the Way.

The rosary is both meditation and supplication. Insistent prayer to the Mother of God is based on confidence that her maternal intercession can obtain all things from the heart of her Son. The rosary is also a path of proclamation and increasing knowledge, in which the mystery of Christ is presented again and again at different levels of the Christian experience.

Excerpt from Pope John Paul II's Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae in condensed form

 

[cartermia]

Dudemaster, I find comfort when I pray to the Blessed Mother. I thought I was praying to much to her and not to her Son, but then I reliezed without Mary God couldn't have been born into this world in an Immaculate womb.  Jesus would not have saved us from our sins and we might still have the weight of sin upon our back. Just think, history would be changed, no Catholic church or the Templar....

[MarysLittleFlower]

Hi :)

 

I'm a convert and I was Protestant before so I understand your fears about this. I've had them too. I remember the first time I prayed the Rosary, and I was nervous that I would offend God, but then I felt this gentle sort of peace and realized that Jesus and Mary are listening to me together... if I speak to Mary, Jesus hears too. There's no competition between them. They're working for the same thing: God's Kingdom... I think sometimes, we might feel almost like there's a competition between them, but there isn't :) Mary does God's will... she honours Him only. Everything she does, is His will. Jesus honours the Father. Jesus also tries to tell the world about Mary, and if she ever talks about herself, it's for this, for His will to make her known, so that He would more known. She leads us to Him, always. She can't do otherwise :) There's a title of Mary - the Sorrowful and the Immaculate Heart of Mary... this title was told to a chosen soul. The title of Immaculate, - was given entirely by grace to her. The title of Sorrowful, - it was through her actions too - through her love for Jesus, as she stood by the Cross, so she won it, though with grace of course. She's full of grace so her gifts are from Him :) and she cooperated with them and brought glory to God and received honour. The title of Sorrowful, - Jesus said He wishes it to be known because she won it herself. So we can see, Jesus wants to honour His Mother too, - for God's greater glory, and also because she's His Mother and He loves her, and was touched by how she loved Him on earth so sincerely. Her reward is to be the Queen (Queen Mother - the Mother of the King, as in the Old Testament). So in any revelations and devotions, if Mary is honoured, this pleases Jesus too :)

 

This same chosen soul was told by Jesus: "Teach souls to love the Heart of My Mother pierced by the very arrows which pierced mine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorrowful_and_Immaculate_Heart_of_Mary

 

There are some revelations that were given by Jesus and Mary to a woman in Damascus, Syria. They're often about reuniting the East and the West in Christianity. Here's something Jesus told her:

 

"Message from Jesus Christ - Friday, August 14, 1987

My daughter,
She is My Mother from whom I was born.
He who honours Her, honours Me.
He who denies Her, denies Me.
And he who asks something from Her, obtains because She is My Mother."

 

here's the website: http://www.soufanieh.com/ENGLISH/eemess.htm

 

So simple :) if we honour Mary, we honour Jesus. All the honour we give her, she gives to Him. If we entrust ourselves to her, she would only give us to Him, and we would do that with the intention of belonging to HIm more fully.

 

Very simply: yet there's so much to it: Mary leads us to Jesus. If we love her, she does this. So dont' be afraid to love her :) I'll address some more points next... you said that with some other teachings, you were unsure until you learned more about them. I think it could help to just learn more about the Catholic teachings on this. They're also found in all of Church history, they're nothing new :)

 

God bless you! :)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Regarding loving Mary :) I understand the fear... you think of Mary, she's so beautiful and kind, of course how could we not love her? and then we think, - why am I not thinking of Jesus? but as you are loving her, she is praying for you to Jesus :) think of how people feel love for their mothers on earth. If we met Mary, who loves us even more - of course we would feel love for her. The Saints sure did. It's impossible not to! I mean if we don't love her, that's a very sad thing, very bad sign for us. Because everything in Mary is from God. If we reject her, we reject Him too... :( all her graces are from God.

 

I don't think this means that you can't have a very close intimate relationship with Our Lord. Jesus loves infinitely... He loves more than we can ever comprehend (actually Mary does too, because we comprehend so little!). Jesus loves us to the point of longing for our love, longing to give us His grace, to forgive... there are some things that He said to the Saints that are just so beautiful:

 

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/divine_mercy.htm (just take a look at this, pretty incredible!)

 

or this: http://thedivinemercy.org/library/article.php?NID=2265

 

there are more revelations, like to St Faustina!

 

The interesting point relating to this discussion is that all these Saints who loved Jesus so intimately, loved Mary a great deal too. They weren`t distant from her. They were actually very close to Mary, therefore also close to Jesus. :) because there`s no competition between them and she led them to her Son! think of all the special graces she must have obtained for them. In fact every single Saint was and is very devoted to Mary. We love what Jesus loves, and He loves His Mother more than we can ever love her :) St Therese said this, - about Jesus loving His Mother much more, and also said that we don`t have to fear loving her too much! there`s no such thing as `too much`... think of Heaven, of every soul loving to their full capacity. Their hearts consumed with God`s love. There`s no too much... if we understand Mary the way the Church understands her. And if we realize, she leads us to Jesus and wants us to love Him. He`s the ultimate end. He must be the end of our devotion. But this doesn`t mean, we can`t think of Mary, or feel love for her. When we feel close to Mary, she works in us to help us perhaps in ways we don`t even realize at the time... ultimately, we love Jesus more.

 

It could help you to look at the Saints! There`s a beautiful Saint named St Gemma Galgani. She was so pure of heart and humble. She saw Jesus often and saw Mary, and her Guardian Angel, and a Saint she was devoted to (St Gabriel Possenti). She said things to Jesus like: (referring to the Eucharist, which is a whole topic of course!)

 

`"It is night and I long for the morning when Jesus will possess me and I shall possess Jesus. Have I deserved this favour? No, my Father, is it not true? Jesus, my God, the only object of my affections. What a joy for me if I should die after receiving Him. Yes, to die in the ecstasy of Holy Communion. My only Love, Jesus . . . I await You. Oh, at least let the transports of my tenderness make You forget the bitterness of my worthlessness. Deluded indeed are they who love anyone beside Jesus. Oh my God, You deign once again on this day to cast a glance upon the least worthy of all Your children. It is too much, Oh my God, too much. My God, I adore You. I am dying of love for You, I have Your sweet Name ever in my mind, in my heart and on my lips. Jesus, Jesus, now and ever! Jesus, light of my heart and my soul. Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!" (“Blessed Gemma Galgani” by Benedict Williamson, 1933. )

 

We can see St Gemma certainly loved Jesus in an extraordinary way: not just from her words, but her life. She also loved Mary. This quote about her meeting with Mary has helped me understand more :)

 

"Whoever could have imagined," thus she wrote "that this evening my dear Mother would have come to see me? It was not even to be thought of because I believed that my bad conduct would prevent it. Yet she had compassion on me. Her presence quickly put me in a state of recollection, and then, as often happens, I lost my senses, and I found myself, I think, with Our Lady of Sorrows. Oh, what happiness! What sweetness of heart I felt during those wonderful moments! Let whoever can, explain it. It seemed to me, after some moments of emotion, that she took me in her lap and made me rest my head on her shoulder and keep it there for a short time. My heart during that time felt perfectly happy and con­tented without any other desire. "Do you love only me?" she asked me now and then. "Oh, no!" I answered her, "before You I love someone else." "And who is it?" She said, pre­tending not to know. "It is one so dear to me! More dear than all else. I love Him so much that I would now, this moment, give my life for Him; for His sake I regard not my life." "But tell me, who is it?" she asked me "If You, Mother, had come the evening before last, You would have seen Him with me. I instead go to Him every day [she meant in Holy Communion], and I would go more often if I could. But do You know Mother," I continued, "why I do so? Because I know that He wishes to see, by His keeping so far away from me, if I am capable of ceasing to love Him. But quite the contrary, the farther He keeps away, the more I feel drawn to Him! And she repeated: "Tell me, who is He?" "No," I replied, "I won't tell thee. If only You have seen Him, Mother! He is like Thee in beauty; His hair is the color of Yours." Mother, then embracing me, seemed to say again: "But my child, tell me of whom are you speaking." I then exclaimed aloud, "Do You not understand me? Of Jesus, I speak of Jesus." "Repeat it still louder," she said. Then, smiling, she looked at me and pressed me closely to herself, saying, "Yes, love Him, but love Him greatly; Listen well! Love Him alone!" "Don't be afraid," I said to her, "no one in the world shall taste my affections! Jesus alone." Again she pressed me to her; she seemed to kiss me on the forehead. Then I awoke [meaning that she came out of the ecstasy], and I found myself stretched on the floor with the crucifix near me."
 

(source: “The Life of St Gemma Galgani”, by Venerable Father Germanus Ruoppolo CP)

 

So we can see that being near Mary does mean feeling her love for us, and feeling love for her too, and she leads us to Jesus :)

 

one other thing St Gemma said about Mary:

 

"Oh, how I love my Mother!" she used to say. "She knows it; and then Jesus Himself gave her to me, and told me to love her so much. And what great goodness this Heavenly Mother has always shown me! What would have become of me, if I had not had her? She has always helped me in my spiritual wants; she has preserved me from countless dangers; she has freed me from the hands of the devil who was ceaselessly com­ing to molest me; she pleaded my cause with Jesus when I sinned, and she soothed Him when I moved Him to anger by my wicked life; she has taught me to know Him and love Him, to be good and to please Him. Ah, my dear Mother, I will love thee always and forever."
 

So nothing to fear :)

[MarysLittleFlower]

One other thing.. you`ve shared a beautiful experience you had with Mary. I don`t think you have to be afraid. I mean, she DOES love us. If we met her, we`d feel that. And we`d love her too. Her presence does feel different than Our Lord`s, and that`s fine. His presence is very loving too, and it`s different in some ways, because He is God. Mary is our Mother. I don`t talk much about this, but maybe this would help you: one time I was praying the `Hail Mary`(only the first part, Ave Maria, while a recording of it was playing) - and I felt Mary`s presence. I can tell you, yes she was so loving! We don`t have to be afraid of this because she`s filled with His love, of course she would be like this :) and she loves us more than we experience. It would be very sad if in response to this, all we felt was coldness. :( when we love her, we love the Mother that Jesus gave us. (on the Cross, when He said `behold your Mother`... He was not just talking to Apostle John - this has a spiritual significance as well). If we dont love her, that would be very sad because we would be rejecting His Mother, and the gift of her being our Mother too. I hope that helps somehow :) God bless you!

[MarysLittleFlower]

The problem is more about centering a somewhat good deal of ones spiritual life on some person that is not God. In periods when i did pray the rosary, i found myself sometimes thinking more about Mary than about Jesus. This, to me, is a sign that makes me confused and unsettled. Seeing the RC stuff about apparatitions of Mary, hearing about personal consecrations to Mary and eventually Pius XII's consecration of the entire world to Mary, is the same thing but on a larger scale.

 

I see how this could be confusing to you, but with time, it does become more obvious that Mary is helping and giving graces. We begin to think more lovingly of Jesus too. She also helps us to understand how to love Him better. (like with the Saints!). If in individual times you thought more about Mary, - maybe she wants to lead you to loving her Son more closely too :) and maybe Jesus wants to lead you to an understanding of Mary and giving you the grace to know her too! He wants us to know her because through her we can come closer to Him, and because she`s our Mother, and because Jesus loves her and wants her to be honoured for how she loves Him and suffered for Him, and this brings great glory to God: who she is and what she did, glorified God, so when we accept this, we accept His work. When we reject it, we reject His work. If we reject His work, we reject Him, we dishonour Him. So it`s good to know Mary :) regarding personal consecrations to Mary... I`ve done a consecration to Mary. Basically what this is, is you give yourself to Mary *so that* she gives you to Jesus in a way that`s more perfect than what you alone can do. Because clearly, she`s way closer to Jesus than we are, and she`s more spiritually powerful than us too. If we give ourselves, He would accept us. But if we go through Mary, - she would make our souls especially beautiful for Him. There`s an example in the Old Testament... Rebecca and Jacob and Esau. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob, and when they were giving gifts to their father, - Jacob went to Rebecca first who is his mother and knows all about what his father would like, and his gift was pleasing to the father. Mary knows Jesus better than us. Or, another example from a Saint: let`s say you`re giving a gift to the king and all you have is an apple. You can just give him the apple. Since he`s a good and kind king, he`ll accept it. But if you give it to the queen first, she would put it on a gold plate and present it in a better way. So if we give ourselves to Mary, she would only give us more perfectly to Jesus :) I`m only mentioning this because you mentioned, personal consecrations. This might be a little hard to understand and don`t worry if it is, but it is something that`s of God, and if it makes no sense we can ask God to help us understand it. But there are some basic things we can understand about Mary first, that would help us.

 

I think devotion to Mary, does lead us closer to Jesus. But it`s not wrong to think of her, imo. We can think of her, and she would help us to love Jesus more, ultimately. I did have times when she also helped me reject temptations or took away certain problems I had that were keeping me from God. She`s also led me closer to Jesus.

 

One thing I would suggest: maybe all this happened because Jesus wants you to know Mary :) and the reason for this is that you would know the truth about our Mother. And this would help you love Jesus more. Maybe she could lead you to other things, and pray for you in special ways and obtain special graces for you. The prayer of a righteous man avails much...``no one is closer to God than His Mother.

 

Let me know if there`s anything unclear or any questions... or any questions that you got from reading all this. Sorry there`s so much ;)

Edited April 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

Mary was the source of my conversion to the Catholic faith. My go to prayer when people ask for one is the Hail Mary. I have a huge devotion the the Rosary. And I too came from a Protestant background. 

 

Think about it this way, is Jesus really going to get jealous of us because we're asking his mother for help? Especially since any help that she gives us ultimately comes from Him? All prayers we sent through Mary go right onto Jesus anyway. She does not outshine Him, she shines because of Him. The devil can't trick you away from Christ by using Mary, he can twist scriptures, but he can't twist the saints, and he especially cannot twist the Mother of God.

 

Do you have a solid understanding of the Catholic belief surrounding the Eucharist? That might help you to fall back in love with Jesus in the same way you've fallen in love with Mary. That's what did it for me, anyway.

I want to really emphasize the point about the Eucharist.. that is so true.

 

The Eucharist is what helped my devotion to Jesus be way closer than it was before.

 

Maybe...Jesus is leading you to know Mary better, so she could help you to know Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament ;) just something to consider.

 

You said that you were raised Lutheran, - I`m not entirely sure if my understanding is correct on this, but is it the case that Lutherans believe that Jesus is spiritually present in Communion, or that Communion is both Jesus *and* the bread, at the same time (sorry my question mark is not working right now for some reason....haha).

 

You might have heard this somewhere, but Catholics believe that Jesus is literally present in the Eucharist, and there`s no more bread there at all, and that we literally receive His Body and Blood. He unites Himself with us. We also believe in the priesthood and this is related to the Consecration of the Eucharist. (Jesus chose Apostles... they appointed Bishops... go forward to todays` Bishops and priests... Apostolic Succession...)

 

even though the ideas are different - I mean with our understanding of the priesthood, and the Mass, and transubstantiation, (honestly there`s sooo much info on this, it often takes a long time to understand it all, at least for me!) - but since you believe that Jesus is in Communion, that part could be a step for you to understand more about the Catholic teaching, then let`s say if someone didn`t believe in Jesus`presence in Communion at all :)

Edited April 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

I appreciate the point of how Mary directs to Christ in Cana (and stuff in the angelus). But how can i know she is always directing to Christ? And is it possible to practice a false devotion to Mary (while thinking it is true), which would pervert her meaning? If so, how do i know i have a proper or true devotion to Mary or a false one? What if what i previously did was, as you would say, a devotion to Mary for Mary's own sake? 

 

of course, it`s possible, but not I think under pretext of thinking it`s a Catholic devotion and Mary as she`s explained to us... the person would know it`s not Catholic. But all these false understandings also go against what the Catholic Church teaches :) for example, if someone were to worship Mary and go to her for her own sake. Think she`s greater than Jesus, more powerful.

 

St Louis de Montfort, who taught about consecration to Mary and all these things, actually said - that true devotion to Mary, leads us to Jesus too. He is the end of the devotion.

 

How to know if yours is true or false... here`s just what I think on this:

 

I think the ONLY way to love Mary `too much`is if you place her over Jesus. If you love Mary intensely but you love Jesus even more, that`s basically the result of true devotion. Now here you might be confused cause you might say, - what if I thought more of Mary. what if I felt more love for her. Was that misdirected. But I think that Mary, expands our heart to love God. None of us love God like we ought to. We come to Mary. God leads us to her... she`s so kind, and gentle, and of course we begin to love her, as God shows us more about her. She, in response, expands our heart to understand love better (which happened for you!). The result of this is ultimately (this could involve various steps, and time, - as God knows) - that your heart would be capable of more love, like we were meant to love, and we would love God better. But we wouldn`t love Mary less than before... only more! :) we`d love her more, and Jesus all the more, and this would continue, and in Heaven, we`ll love perfectly. That`s how people become Saints, perhaps. Maybe what you experienced, is this first step: God leading you to Mary.

 

You might have the question - why can`t God just lead you to Himself and do all these things Himself, rather than through Mary.

 

2 points:

 

- it is His action, even through Mary. Still His.

- involving Mary in the process glorifies Him and is His will.

 

Take a look at that example about St Gemma... didn`t she feel Mary`s love at the beginning. But look how in the end, Mary just led her to Jesus. But St Gemma didn`t stop loving Mary... she probably loved her more after this. She also loved Jesus more as a result of knowing Mary.

 

God bless!

Edited April 7, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower