Feel Bad About Praying For Mary's Intercession, Help.

[Dudemaster]

Im obviously not a RC. I'd like to get som help from you guys, so please bear with me (and my English). 

 

I started to look into the RC thing about five years ago. It took me a year or two to get to the point where i was not just curious and somewhat offended, but curious and increasingly sympathetic. Eventually i got a rosary, and i prayed it every now and then whenever feeling emotionally inclined. It did something to direct my spiritual life to a sort of calmness, the type of calm that could only be induced by femininity (im not sure if females understand what this is about, just as the person with the bad breath is the last to know he/she has a bad breath). I associate it very heavily with Mary, but also less strongly in other women. Firstly nuns, I visited a female monastery once and the whole atmosphere was like that. Secondly a very few non-religious women; i havent noticed it in any protestant. 

Initially praying the rosary made me calm, but i did not make a habit out of it, partly because i had theological doubts about whether or not it is proper. I have no problem praying for the intercession of any person, living or dead. The problem is more about centering a somewhat good deal of ones spiritual life on some person that is not God. In periods when i did pray the rosary, i found myself sometimes thinking more about Mary than about Jesus. This, to me, is a sign that makes me confused and unsettled. Seeing the RC stuff about apparatitions of Mary, hearing about personal consecrations to Mary and eventually Pius XII's consecration of the entire world to Mary, is the same thing but on a larger scale. Again, i have no problems with saints and stuff in principle, but what i feel uneasy about is the inclination it gives to christian spiritual life. This is the first point i would like your opinions on; how can it be good and proper to time-wise or energy-wise or whatever, put a very strong emphasis on Mary in ones spiritual life? I dont ask whether or not Mary is theologically significant. Some RC apologetics think they have answered these sort of questions by referring to some Marian dogma or whatever, but my question is not of principles but of proportions. This is important to me, because it turns out the more i learn about Mary the more i like her. Subjectively, it sometimes makes me feel as if i 'appreciate' Mary in a way that is very special. With shame, i must say, in some ways it feels as if i love her in ways that are more intimate than the ways in which i love Jesus. 

 

Anyhow, so this gave me problems and for a year or so i didnt know what to do about it so i did not pray the rosary at all, and forgot about it. Then one day i had an intense pain in my eye, it happens about once a year (long story). It is the worst pain ever, and i had to completely close all the lights in my room and lie flat on the bed. I felt an inclination to get up and get my rosary that i'd put somewhere in the back of some drawer. I did, and i prayed it. I started to think about what it would feel like if Mary would be with me in the room, and i thought it would make me afraid. But i prayed that a) she would come to me and b) that i wouldnt be afraid. And she did :)
I have never felt that kind of love in my entire life; not before, and not since then. It is as if i didnt know about love until then. And since, i have been most passionate about love, not only in this spiritual-emotional-whatever sense but also curious about the theological notion of love (which i hated until then, because of how the liberals hijacks it for whatever decadence they wanna justify, 'all is well in the name of love'). I genuinely believed Mary was with me in the room, not physically but otherwise. It changed me more fundamentally as a person more than anything else, on a subjective level. To the better, obviously. She was with me for two hours, i was so happy. The following three days i thought alot about her, instead of thinking about other women i thought about Mary. But it made me confused, again, for the same reasons as above. I know Jesus has done all for me, but on the subjective level, what i experience with Mary is very special. Nothing, obviously, can outshine what Jesus has done objectively or 'theologically', but subjectively it appears as if Mary is very powerful. Not only subjectively, for when she came to my room i also changed. I dont doubt that Mary has alot of spiritual power. But it made me think so much about her, and love her in ways that were special to her, and so on, and it made me feel as if she meant more for me in terms of my subjective spiritual life than Jesus. Sometimes i wondered if the Devil tried to lure me away from Christ. I threw the rosary in a river and decided for a policy; "it may, or may not, be good to put a strong emphasis on Mary in ones spiritual life. I dont know. But what i know is, it is always good to put a 100% emphasis, subjectively or whatever, on Christ. So that is what i will do, because i know it is safe in all ways". This is more or less how i now think about the RC church; i stick to my prot. background because it is 'safe', while not necessarily always very subjectively stimulating, if you see what i mean.

 

My problem is. I like Mary, and i would like to be able to pray the rosary regularly without feeling bad about it. I guess one could say i long for her. But why do i long to pray to Mary in this way, and not for Jesus? In a way i do long to have a spiritual communion with Jesus, but not in the same way. My love for Mary approximates deep romantic feelings. If would not want to live without a woman, but if i somehow could know Mary would be with me, i sometimes think i could/should live in celibacy. I dont know what to do with all this. Does any other male person feel something similar? Is this okay? What to do?

My experience is, some theological problems that i previously held to be genuinely problematic (like RC teaching on justification) may turn out to be unproblematic or even favourable  with proper knowledge. So i wonder if there is some knowledge or perspective that i lack, that is the source of my problems. I am not theologically ignorant (i currently write a doctoral thesis on Aquinas), but most of the popular common RC apologetics on Mary is not very helpful and none of the RC-folks ive talked to have been able to really help me with this. 

I would be thankful for any help with this. 

 

All the best.

[Nihil Obstat]

What would you say if we could convince you that every prayer to Mary, every devotion to Mary, every thought of Mary, is quite directly and even primarily also a prayer and devotion to Jesus Christ?

[GeorgiiMichael]

Mary was the source of my conversion to the Catholic faith. My go to prayer when people ask for one is the Hail Mary. I have a huge devotion the the Rosary. And I too came from a Protestant background. 

 

Think about it this way, is Jesus really going to get jealous of us because we're asking his mother for help? Especially since any help that she gives us ultimately comes from Him? All prayers we sent through Mary go right onto Jesus anyway. She does not outshine Him, she shines because of Him. The devil can't trick you away from Christ by using Mary, he can twist scriptures, but he can't twist the saints, and he especially cannot twist the Mother of God.

 

Do you have a solid understanding of the Catholic belief surrounding the Eucharist? That might help you to fall back in love with Jesus in the same way you've fallen in love with Mary. That's what did it for me, anyway.

Edited April 4, 2013 by GeorgiiMichael

[Dudemaster]

What would you say if we could convince you that every prayer to Mary, every devotion to Mary, every thought of Mary, is quite directly and even primarily also a prayer and devotion to Jesus Christ?

 

 

Mary was the source of my conversion to the Catholic faith. My go to prayer when people ask for one is the Hail Mary. I have a huge devotion the the Rosary. And I too came from a Protestant background. 

 

Think about it this way, is Jesus really going to get jealous of us because we're asking his mother for help? Especially since any help that she gives us ultimately comes from Him? All prayers we sent through Mary go right onto Jesus anyway. She does not outshine Him, she shines because of Him. The devil can't trick you away from Christ by using Mary, he can twist scriptures, but he can't twist the saints, and he especially cannot twist the Mother of God.

 

Do you have a solid understanding of the Catholic belief surrounding the Eucharist? That might help you to fall back in love with Jesus in the same way you've fallen in love with Mary. That's what did it for me, anyway.

 

Thanks both of you for your replies! :)

Nihil;  What does this mean? What do you mean to show? "quite directly" and "even primarily" could mean alot, much of which i would probably grant. 

Just to clarify my purposes; I dont want to make this into a debate (im not saying that is what you want). I usually get all to focused on winning for the sake of the argument and in finding answers and objections to what you say. I wrote what i wrote, and i'd be very glad to read your case. If i find something i think is wrong, or something i am curious of, i will write. This is, i think, most efficient from the perspective of getting me somewhere. Well, prayer is always most efficient, but.. :)

Georgii; I am not sure jelaousy of Jesus is an issue here, but, for one thing, my conscience.. All things comes from Him (and if one shines, one shines because of Him) but i dont see how that implies it being allright for us to focus a more or less large deal of spiritual attention, if you will, to a saint. From what you say, i see no difficulty in principle, in shaping my entire devotional life on Mary, or even the toenail clippings of some other saint (i dont mean this as offensive, but as an extreme example of your principle that you must grant, i think, or otherwise qualify what you say).  It could even be contrary to justice; giving each his own. Again, i have no objections to praying for the intercession of saints etc, but it is a matter of proportion or such. I see what you mean about the devil being able to twist scriptures, but i am not convinced - as i think you arent, either - that RC saints did not sin. On your thoughts on the eucharist, thanks! That could be something to look into. I am born and raised lutheran and ive been a believer in the real precence for all of my life. Maybe this whole thing with Mary is the newness of it all, which is exciting, while the stuff i always knew cannot excite me in the same way?

 

[Nihil Obstat]

Thanks both of you for your replies! :)

Nihil;  What does this mean? What do you mean to show? "quite directly" and "even primarily" could mean alot, much of which i would probably grant. 
Just to clarify my purposes; I dont want to make this into a debate (im not saying that is what you want). I usually get all to focused on winning for the sake of the argument and in finding answers and objections to what you say. I wrote what i wrote, and i'd be very glad to read your case. If i find something i think is wrong, or something i am curious of, i will write. This is, i think, most efficient from the perspective of getting me somewhere. Well, prayer is always most efficient, but.. :)

I am not particularly interested in debating either. :)

 

I will try to clarify a bit. The Catholic position, when you start digging at it a bit, is that Marian devotion is not exactly devotion to Mary for Mary's own sake. Rather, everything Mariological is, at its base, Christological.

 

The reason for this is that Mary herself never did anything for her own sake, but rather out of love for Christ. By this she is both the perfect example of devotion to Christ, and also a flawless conduit to Christ, as it were.

 

I like the Wedding at Cana for this:

 

2 Two days afterwards, there was a wedding-feast at Cana, in Galilee; and Jesus’ mother was there. ² Jesus himself, and his disciples, had also been invited to the wedding. ³ Here the supply of wine failed; whereupon Jesus’ mother said to him, They have no wine left. ⁴ Jesus answered her, Nay, woman, why dost thou trouble me with that? My time has not come yet.^[a] 5 And his mother said to the servants, Do whatever he tells you.

 

This is a model of Mary's intercession, and her life. "Do whatever he tells you." When we come to her, she leads us straight to Him. We pray to her not because of her own power, but because she points only to Christ.

 

From the account of the Annunciation:

 

³⁸ And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; let it be unto me according to thy word. And with that the angel left her.

 

Mary is understood best through her "Fiat". We are devoted to her not on her own strengths, but because of her submission to God's Word. She is "full of grace" and "blessed among women" because of her humble submission to Christ.

 

 

 

So, every aspect of Mary points not to her as a human, but rather to Christ. We call her immaculate not because she 'deserved' immaculacy, but because the Immaculate Conception reveals Christ as God. We call her mediatrix and advocatrix not because she is powerful, but because she draws us into Christ's power.

 

That is why we say that everything Mariological is ultimately Christology. :) Every Marian dogma points to Christ. Every Marian devotion reveals a devotion to Christ.

 

Mary as Mother only has meaning when we consider Christ as the Son. The Son of Man and the Son of God.

[Dudemaster]

I appreciate the point of how Mary directs to Christ in Cana (and stuff in the angelus). But how can i know she is always directing to Christ? And is it possible to practice a false devotion to Mary (while thinking it is true), which would pervert her meaning? If so, how do i know i have a proper or true devotion to Mary or a false one? What if what i previously did was, as you would say, a devotion to Mary for Mary's own sake? 

 

[Nihil Obstat]

I appreciate the point of how Mary directs to Christ in Cana (and stuff in the angelus). But how can i know she is always directing to Christ? And is it possible to practice a false devotion to Mary (while thinking it is true), which would pervert her meaning? If so, how do i know i have a proper or true devotion to Mary or a false one? What if what i previously did was, as you would say, a devotion to Mary for Mary's own sake? 

That would make a liar out of Mary then. How could she do anything besides draw us to Christ? She could only do such a thing if she were the old Eve, but she is not. She is the new Eve.

Eve turned her back on God's Word by listening to the temptation to become like God. The new Eve, Mary, allows God, through Christ, to re-order what became disordered in Adam. Just as Eve participated in the first Sin, Mary participates in salvation.

With anything less than her Fiat, we have no correcting of Eve's faithlessness.

 

On a purely practical level, a devotion to Mary certainly could become superstitious or idolatrous. Not through Mary's fault though, but rather our own. For instance I heard once that there is a strange sect somewhere that worships Mary as a goddess. Obviously she is not. But this is the sect's failing. They have turned her into an idol, which is against everything she herself lived and died for.

 

So, Mary herself will always draw us to Christ. As long as we let her speak to us. If we, in our sinfulness, try to make her into something she is not, i.e. an idol, then it is us who pervert Mary's role, not a deficiency on her part.

[GeorgiiMichael]

Georgii; I am not sure jelaousy of Jesus is an issue here, but, for one thing, my conscience.. All things comes from Him (and if one shines, one shines because of Him) but i dont see how that implies it being allright for us to focus a more or less large deal of spiritual attention, if you will, to a saint. From what you say, i see no difficulty in principle, in shaping my entire devotional life on Mary, or even the toenail clippings of some other saint (i dont mean this as offensive, but as an extreme example of your principle that you must grant, i think, or otherwise qualify what you say).  It could even be contrary to justice; giving each his own. Again, i have no objections to praying for the intercession of saints etc, but it is a matter of proportion or such. I see what you mean about the devil being able to twist scriptures, but i am not convinced - as i think you arent, either - that RC saints did not sin. On your thoughts on the eucharist, thanks! That could be something to look into. I am born and raised lutheran and ive been a believer in the real precence for all of my life. Maybe this whole thing with Mary is the newness of it all, which is exciting, while the stuff i always knew cannot excite me in the same way?

 

 

As Nihil has said, in regards to Mary, she is totally sinless, and everything she did, she did for Christ, and everything she does for us, directs us to Christ. As for the rest of the saints, yes, the did sin during their earthly life, but as they are now in heaven, they cannot sin. By virtue of their heavenly presence, they are without sin, and as sinless as Christ and Mary. Humans can turn our devotion to various saints into idolatry, as Nihil as said, but that is not the fault of the saints in heaven, but rather our own fault. 

 

We could not shape our entire devotional life around Mary or any of the saints (if it is a true and holy devotion) because devotion to them, and especially devotion to Mary, points us to Christ. Their example for holy living is because of Christ, and we cannot have a proper devotion to them without also necessarily having a devotion to Christ. All roads lead to Jesus, in this regard. And like I said, my conversion was based around Mary, she led me to the Catholic Church, and to Jesus. I too come from a Lutheran upbringing and I understood that my pastor told me that Christ was really present in the Eucharist, but I never really believed it until my conversion. 

 

I'd suggest that, in coming to terms with all of this, it might be a good idea to find a Catholic Church that offers Eucharistic Adoration. It's a beautiful devotion within the Catholic Church of adoring Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist, and sitting in prayer in front of the consecrated Host.

 

Good luck and God bless!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

May the Peace that only JESUS can bring be with you dudemaster.

i will just answer the 1st point. 1 i don't pray the holy rosary i pray with the holy mother, at the beggining of the rosary i ask for her intercession/prayers on whatever matters, Also you need to understand the 1st half of the hail mary is directly from scripture and is called an ejaculatory prayer like taking a verse from psalms, lets say the lord is my rock and redeemer and than repeating it however many times. And the second half of the hail mary is intercessory where we ask for her prayers. Okay. And 2 i meditate in my mind upon the scriptures on the mysteries of the rosary ( you will need to get a rosary booklet to find out what these mysteries are. The rosary booklet has a verse from the holy bible for each mystery, i take these as pointers and not exacts the mysteries expand often in to relating stuff in the other gospels on each mystery. Like the crucifixion has variations of the same mystery in each gospel. One way to start if not knowing the gospels by heart is to read a little bit before the revealed verse(pointer.) and a little bit after, so like if the revealed vs is luke 20:15, read also luke 20:1-15 and luke 20:15-20, reciting these or just reading these before  the our father and the hail mary's of each decade and during each decade trying to think through these words while reciting the hail mary's. Once you get into the swing of it you will know the mysteries by heart and can think upon each mystery easily and who knows you may even be able to have an imaginary theatre in your mind and use pictures that you imagine the mysteries are about along with the words. Oh yes also most of the mysteries are about Jesus' life and death except the 4th and 5th glorious mysteries which are about the holy mother.

 

Well hopefully some of that helps, that's the way i was taught(or somehow learnt by the holy spirit.) to do the rosary anyhow.

 

God bless you.

JESUS iz LORD.

Onward christian souls.

[Nihil Obstat]

Here is an icon for you. You might find it worthwhile to look at it for a bit and meditate on what it communicates.
 

 
And for those of us who pray the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, here is a little response that we make at one point, I believe during Matins:
 
"O holy and immaculate Virgin, with what praises I shall extol thee, I know not; for he whom the heavens could not contain, rested in thy bosom."

[TheLordsSouljah]

Welcome to the Phamily! =)

One book: True Devotion to Mary, by St Louis de Montfort. Explains so beautifully and simply the path to Jesus through Mary, especially in that it takes nothing from Christ (n.b. 17th c). Highly recommended. Also, The World's First Love, by Fulton J Sheen, extremely engaging, sheds insights into so many aspects of Our Lady's life. An amazing read.

 

I am no scholar on the subject and no little proper Mariology. But in post 6 you asked if it were possible to have a false devotion to Mary under the pretence that it was a true one. I don't think this is possible. Marian devotion is a very simple thing. Mary is Mother and loves us as our Mother. She is obviously deeply aware that our true place in life is in knowing, loving and serving God, and being happy within the love of the Trinity in the Beatific vision someday. This is God's will for us. To love and to do His will is in Our Lady's very essence. She can only lead to her Son, because both she and God want us happy, and she knows that only God can make us happy. If you have Christ in the right place, and Our Lady in her proper place, God sees that. You are doing your part, and they both see that. Our loving God doesn't want us in error. Love and fear not to take for yourself Our Lady as your Mother... it's so wonderful! In loving and listening to her sincerely as your mother, she will only guide you back if your devotion becomes misdirected. 

Don't worry. Love is simple. God bless you!! :)

[Nihil Obstat]

Welcome to the Phamily! =)
One book: True Devotion to Mary, by St Louis de Montfort. Explains so beautifully and simply the path to Jesus through Mary, especially in that it takes nothing from Christ (n.b. 17th c). Highly recommended. Also, The World's First Love, by Fulton J Sheen, extremely engaging, sheds insights into so many aspects of Our Lady's life. An amazing read.

I feel like I should add here that St. Louis de Monfort is considered... very intense. For someone who is not very well versed in and comfortable with intense Mariology, True Devotion is often perceived as being too much. Even by Catholics. Common consensus is that it very much is not a book for 'beginners'.

[TheLordsSouljah]

I feel like I should add here that St. Louis de Monfort is considered... very intense. For someone who is not very well versed in and comfortable with intense Mariology, True Devotion is often perceived as being too much. Even by Catholics. Common consensus is that it very much is not a book for 'beginners'.

Hmm.... true..... perhaps I should have been more specific for content?

[Nihil Obstat]

Hmm.... true..... perhaps I should have been more specific for content?

Perhaps not necessarily more specific, but more gradual. :smile3: True Devotion is a masterpiece, of course, but like all the finer things in life, like whisky, art, and Mariology, one must first develop one's palate before those things can be properly appreciated.

[Adrestia]

Good morning.

 

In my opinion, the fact that you are concerned about whether your focus is appropriately placed on our savior is a sign that you are truly focused on our savior.  I might be wrong, but I think that people who fail to focus on Christ are not worried about whether they are focused on Him.

 

I appreciate the point of how Mary directs to Christ in Cana (and stuff in the angelus). But how can i know she is always directing to Christ? And is it possible to practice a false devotion to Mary (while thinking it is true), which would pervert her meaning? If so, how do i know i have a proper or true devotion to Mary or a false one? What if what i previously did was, as you would say, a devotion to Mary for Mary's own sake? 

 

Again, this is just my opinion, but if Mary (and the other saints) are truly in paradise with the Lord, then our prayers must be directed to Christ.  I feel like that's an integral part of sainthood.  How do you know if your devotion is proper?  The tree is known by its fruit, right?  The Lord knows your heart.  I think He will keep you on the right path if you continue to listen to Him.  He gave us His mother to help us, she wants to help us.

 

Just my $0.02