On Selflessness

[Basilisa Marie]

But what happens when your needs being met causes inconvenience or even real problems for someone else? It feels wrong to ask, knowing that it will lead to consequences for them.

 

And their needs never cause inconvenience or problems for you?  :)   You're obviously not the kind of person who only considers your own needs and desires.  It's okay for you to ask for things, because it sounds like you've got a good handle on what constitutes a need and what constitutes a want for you.  

[Basilisa Marie]

ut the idea that they put their responsibilities or obligations on hold to show me love is super bothersome to me. I should make uncomfortable sacrifices for everyone and not complain, but no one else should have to.

 

If no one else should have to, then why do you get to be the only one who gets to have opportunities to grow in virtue by putting yourself aside?  By asking for help or causing some temporary inconvenience, you're giving your loved ones the opportunity to not only grow in virtue but to show you how much they love you.  

[Noel's angel]

Generally speaking -- I'm referring to no specific circumstance here -- most people don't mind, or if they do, they never tell me. (I know if I'm bothered by something, I never show it.)

 

But the idea that they put their responsibilities or obligations on hold to show me love is super bothersome to me. I should make uncomfortable sacrifices for everyone and not complain, but no one else should have to.

 

Part of loving one's neighbour is accepting that they love you. (Again, sorry for the over-simplicity)

[MissyP89]

And their needs never cause inconvenience or problems for you?   :)   You're obviously not the kind of person who only considers your own needs and desires.  It's okay for you to ask for things, because it sounds like you've got a good handle on what constitutes a need and what constitutes a want for you.  

 

I want to pull out this post, because I think it's actually the cause of a lot of my grief.

 

I'm not really sure what I need vs. what I want.

 

I know that, for example, I need to talk about things with my friends or family from time to time. And sometimes I feel very urgent about that, even if it's not a convenient time, because some issue is really weighing heavily on me and affecting me negatively.

 

The longer I wait to discuss it, the worse the feeling gets. So it very much feels like a "need." But I usually tell myself to smell of elderberries it up and wait a week or two until my family/friends are less stressed or busy. I WANT to discuss it now, but instead I decide to wait.

 

And as I wait, I just feel more and more burdened and isolated because I'm holding in whatever problem it is I'm having. 

 

I hope that makes sense. I'm not very articulate about this. Thanks for your patience.

Edited April 3, 2013 by MissyP89

[Anastasia13]

MissyP89, I relate very well to several of your posts here.  I think this is the book that people including someone here keep suggested to me: Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend.

http://www.christianbook.com/boundaries-large-print-edition-henry-cloud/9781594150074/pd/150079?en=google-pla&kw=other-0-20&p=1167941&gclid=CKT4xNGqr7YCFYdxQgodu24A-g

P.S. Great thread.

[arfink]

I think there is an unnecessary separation of want and need here. It is true that it's totally reasonable to come to other people with your needs, but it is also completely reasonable to come to other people with your wants as well!

 

In Luke 11 Jesus says:

 

"And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. What father among you would hand his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Or hand him a scorpion when he asks for an egg? If you then, who are wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father in heaven give the holy Spirit to those who ask him?"

 

I would add, who would say to their child "You don't strictly need that, and so based on that alone I shall deny you?" Parents do not wait until their children are malnourished and in need of food before feeding them. You don't need to wait for a want to turn into a need in order to deal with it.

 

Just because you don't need something doesn't mean you can't have it, or shouldn't have it, or shouldn't ask for it. Just ask! Asking will save you the heartache of having to wait until your need is dire.

[AnneLine]

Wanted you to know I've seen this, and I need AND want to pray about it before I answer.  :)

 

Really good thread, really good discussion....

 

Promise to come back to this as soon as I can, OK?

[MissScripture]

Having a kid really helped me sort this out. Not quickly, not easily and not perfectly, but I definitley have a better grasp on the necessity of taking care of myself in order to take care of others. I have much more to add, but Atm I am on my kindle. I will try to get on a computer with an actual keyboard tonight to explain myself further. :)

[Tufsoles]

I think what the church is teaching is put your desires and wants last. Needs like brushing your teeth,eating well or healthy, exercise, Bathing, dressing decently(not expensively or over the top.), Sleep, dealing with our emotions are essential needs with out those we fail to take care of our selves. This is not considered selfish. Wants and desires like I want a new car when the car I have is in fine condition or having the latest tech toy when we may not need that item is considered selfish. Yes, We should take care of our neighbors that are sick, imprisoned, homless or our spouses and children.

[BG45]

I have no answers, but only prayers that you find what you seek. :)

[Maggyie]

Missy I get what you are saying. Once upon a time I had the similar thoughts, particularly when reading about turning the other cheek and giving your whole cloak when someone asks for your tunic.

 

The problem was I didn't have very good self-esteem. That's what leads to these thoughts and feelings.

 

As my personal understanding of my self-worth improved, I came to understand that Jesus is instructing Christians about their attitudes and their relationships with their neighbor. He's being literal but not LITERAL. If we put these words into literal action we would be doormats. I realize you probably know all that.

 

Bottom line what minimized the negative feelings was improving my health (emotionally and mentally). It was just a manifestation of deeper issues/damage I was dealing with. I don't know if you have health insurance or if your insurance will pay for it but even secular therapy can be great for drilling this stuff down.

 

If it helps, look at it from this perspective: if in every single situation you literally put your needs and wants last, you are depriving the other person of the opportunity to be sanctified by sacrificing themselves for you. Iif you are REALLY going to put them first, you need to take care of their spiritual health most of all right? So....give them the chance to deny themselves every once in a while.

[TheLordsSouljah]

CAN TOTALLY RELATE!!

 

But you know what, I could be wrong, but in my short life I personally think it's all about YOUR ATTITUDE that you have to start with. If you have low self esteem and let people walk all over you, then to turn the other cheek, give your whole cloak, give every ounce of your energy and drop of yourself possible is not a good thing. When Jesus spoke of being selfless, He was talking to very selfish people. And selfishness doesn't sound like your start point, so sit down and review.

 

All things must be done in love, and YOU HAVE NEEDS that God has given you for a reason. We are human. My mother would always tell me we NEED to cater for our 'PIES' every day: Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual. 

 

And when you think about it, being selfless is a sacrifice. It's mean to be. It's to give of ourselves. And when we place no price on ourselves, what is the cost? If Christ's saving sacrifice was not out of love but was actually just suicidal, what would be the point? You need to love yourself - and when it comes to this kind of attitude, you've almost gotta think selfish, but not, you know? Tip yourself over to the other side just a little to get your balance right. You need to love yourself a little (or a lot!) more! 

 

Hehe, it's like we are reservoirs with pipes for God's love - we channel love to others. If our pipes are blocked by selfishness and sin, we can't do that. But when you are so eager to let it out/pedantic about being clear and you're full of holes, it would be misdirected, spread too thin, and one would loose, as in a drought, the meaning of what the reservoir was really for. 

 

God love you, ma dear!! Look after yourself and really try and feel the loving embrace of the Father. Please take care. God bless you sister!! <3 xo

 

Edited April 4, 2013 by TheLordsSouljah

[PapistWyf]

I think you've gotten a lot of good replies. I was thinking the same thing that some others have said: sometimes you need to allow yourself to be the object of others' charity. This probably requires some humility, but God put us in relationships with others so that there would be give and take, I believe. It is true that compared to God, we are nothing, but with each other, we are equal in dignity, so we can't consider ourselves worthless compared to them. Sometimes you can do the right thing for the wrong reasons. So perhaps selflessness in a given situation is good, but if you are doing it b/c you don't see your own worth as compared to others, then it is for the wrong reason.

 

I think too, if being selfless leads to negative feelings of frustration, anger, resentment, or whatever - you have to take a look at that. Ask yourself and ask the Lord to show you why you are feeling this way. (again, you could be acting selfless for the wrong reasons, which is well, wrong.) Is it possible that sometimes you are being "selfless" out of fear of confrontation? or could it be that you don't feel deserving of others' time and attention when you want/need to talk to them? etc...

 

You also said in your OP something about not considering your own needs and desires... I think we still need to know ourselves and know what our needs and desires are, and then try to discern what is the best course of action in a given situation. Perhaps there is a different virtue the Lord wants you to work on that is not selflessness. (Maybe some prayerful reflection on past situations where you believe you were acting selfless would help you to see if maybe there was a different way you could have acted that might have exercised a different virtue?) Maybe sometimes you are called to be an apostle and speak up instead of assuming you should fade into the background. Maybe, in humility, you need to ask someone to give something to you (so they can practice charity).

 

I think the "other" for whom you are being selfless is also significant. Is it a stranger? a sibling or relative? a child? a spouse?  B/c for example, if it were your spouse (I know you're not married yet, but for the sake of discussion) with whom you have a covenant relationship and a duty to help get to heaven, just putting a lid on it all the time in the name of "selflessness" would not be good for your marriage. 

Which, I guess also goes back to the specific situation... I think sometimes selflessness is called for, and sometimes, maybe it isn't...?  In the future, when you are married and have a family, you also will have to weigh their needs and it might mean saying "no" to someone outside your family - which might seem selfish at first glance - but in fact it would be prudent.

 

I think it is great that you are looking to Jesus and Mary and Joseph for examples of how to live virtuously. These are indeed our best examples.  perhaps some spiritual reading would help you to understand it more deeply.  I don't know of anything off hand specifically about this virtue, but The Imitation of Christ is a classic and touches on all the virtures pretty much, I think.  I also did a quick search at audio sancto (Catholic sermons) and found a couple that might be a propos.  (but i haven't had the time to listen to them:  http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20120617-The-More-Selflessly-We-Love-the-More-We-Are-Loved.html and http://www.audiosancto.org/sermon/20130329-Let-Us-Die-to-Self-So-We-Can-Rise-with-Christ.html)  or if you are able to find a spiritual director, or even just a trusted priest that you know that you feel like you could chat with or email would also help you to understand better what it means to live the virtue of selflessness.  Also, other lives of the saints would surely be helpful if you could find the right stories/writings. 

 

Keep asking questions!  It is a journey to holiness and we all need help to get there!!