reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) Since Catholics are proclaiming that Apostle Peter was their first Pope - please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes using Matthew 16:13 – 20 as basis. Can you please tell us who really started this ‘first pope’ thing to ‘Peter of the Gospel’? Because to some, Simon Peter is a Christian legend. Reasons are presented (with Klauss’ summary and comment) in Arthur Drews’ book ‘The Legend of Saint Peter: A Contribution to the Mythology of Christianity’. (please see http://egodeath.com/arthurdrewslegendstpeter.htm). One of the reasons presented is the ‘Petro-Paulinic struggle’ in the Epistle of St. Paul. ------------------------------- 3. In the Epistles of St. Paul Paul usually calls Peter by his semitic name Cephas. 14 years after a first meeting of the two superapostles at Jerusalem, they meet there again for some serious dogmatic differences had to be cleared. Here, Peter originally treats Jews and gentiles equally, until James objects zealotically. Paul sees Peter's attitude as hypocrisy. Galatians, which reports the Petro-Paulinic struggle w.r.t. dealing with the uncircumcised, is thought buy many mainliners as the one epistle authentic beyond any doubt. But this is doubtful. Rather, the epistle gives an apology for Paul by gentile Christians against Judeochristians, praising Paul's independance from Jerusalem. The tradition line of the Apostolic Acts is rebuked polemically. All this is clumsy and ridiculous, one can't make any historical sense from this pesky polemics between the two currents of Christianity. Paul was forced to preach only among the gentiles, but that's practically absurd as the interested gentiles were found in the environment of Jewish diaspora communities. Steck and the Dutch [Naber, Pierson, Loman, van Manen, GA vdBvE] have recognised the proper (lack of) historical value of Galatians, a late patchwork of polical, dogmatically driven fiction in contest with the tradition of the apostolic Acts who favourise the Jerusalem apostles. The mere historicity of Paul is doubtful, and same is to be said about Peter - all the NT stuff in any case holds no historical value concerning those pretended towering figures of young Christianity. Drews allows for the possibility of concluding Pauline existence from the style of the apostolic Acts (many "we"- sentences) [ as does conservative scholar *Chris* Price], but the real Paul , if at all, was a marginal figure far from the pretended significance of the strawman Paul of early church tradition. It also remains to wonder what was the proper subject of the struggle between the two parties. The NT only gives rudimentary hints that practically don't justify such a discrepancy. ------------------------------ So, who really started this ‘first-pope’ thing to Apotle Peter? Because it seems ‘Hermannus Contractus may have been the first historian to number the popes continuously’ (please see again http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes). Edited April 3, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Jesus started it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 Jesus started it. We all know what you are saying. Catholics believed that Simon Peter of the Gospel is their first pope using Matthew. But it is just a belief. My question is who started this kind of ‘belief’ that Simon Peter is your first Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 We all know what you are saying. Catholics believed that Simon Peter of the Gospel is their first pope using Matthew. But it is just a belief. My question is who started this kind of ‘belief’ that Simon Peter is your first Pope. I told you. Jesus did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) I told you. Jesus did. Since you do not want to hear that it is just a belief. Who among you (all of you including your early fathers) saw and heard Jesus Christ himself? Is there anyone of you, who saw and heard Jesus Christ himself (that physical, historical, true man and true divine being) saying ‘Peter is your first pope’? Now, if there is anyone of you who heard Jesus himself saying that words then, (my question is) who is that Catholic? Otherwise, it is just a Catholic belief. Papist, do not insult yourself by pretending you do not know what I am asking. Okay? Edited April 3, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToJesusMyHeart Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 if I hear you say the word "historical" one more time...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arfink Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Reyb, just stop. You're convincing nobody except yourself, and that's never a very good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kateri89 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 if I hear you say the word "historical" one more time...... rotfl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Since you do not want to hear that it is just a belief. Who among you (all of you including your early fathers) saw and heard Jesus Christ himself? Is there anyone of you, who saw and heard Jesus Christ himself (that physical, historical, true man and true divine being) saying ‘Peter is your first pope’? Now, if there is anyone of you who heard Jesus himself saying that words then, (my question is) who is that Catholic? Otherwise, it is just a Catholic belief. Papist, do not insult yourself by pretending you do not know what I am asking. Okay? I saw Jesus just the other day. He told me Peter was the first pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 I saw Jesus just the other day. He told me Peter was the first pope. :hehe: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) I saw Jesus just the other day. He told me Peter was the first pope. Good that is better. Sometimes, it is easy to admit a lie than to pretend you are telling the truth. :hehe2: Anyway, it is okay. I feel you bro. Edited April 3, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kateri89 Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Reyb, just out of curiosity do your threads ever actually go anywhere? You always post stuff with a seemingly antagonistic intention and then insist that none of us know the historical Jesus. By the end of the thread, I'm pretty sure nothing gets accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 if I hear you say the word "historical" one more time...... rotfl Do you want me to call it -Ignatius' Jesus Christ rather than historical Jesus? I will do it if you do not want to hear 'historical' for brotherhood sake. :hehe2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 3, 2013 Share Posted April 3, 2013 Good that is better. Sometimes, it is easy to admit a lie than to pretend you are telling the truth. :hehe2: Anyway, it is okay. I feel you bro. Yes. I can see you have an easy time in your admissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 3, 2013 Author Share Posted April 3, 2013 Reyb, just stop. You're convincing nobody except yourself, and that's never a very good thing. Reyb, just out of curiosity do your threads ever actually go anywhere? You always post stuff with a seemingly antagonistic intention and then insist that none of us know the historical Jesus. By the end of the thread, I'm pretty sure nothing gets accomplished. Yes. I can see you have an easy time in your admissions. My only intention in doing it, is for all of you to seek the real one. But, what can I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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