Archangel Raphael Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Alright, I figured I'd start this thread in hopes of gaining some more understanding between our Catholic and Protestant brothers n sisters. Had an interesting talk with my Mom and brother this morning, how that the Catholics and Protestants usually tend to speak a different language. Which seems so very true, yet in reality, both parts can believe relatively the same thing. For an example: When Catholics say you are 'Saved' when you get to heaven, yet Protestants say you are 'Saved' when you accept Christ into your heart, are two different views of being 'Saved' or 'Born Again'. But what it only means is, Catholics know that you can lose your salvation during your life if you decide to backslide and fall away from the Faith. Yet little do some know that, that's what also Protestants teach (except maybe some Baptists, I dunno, could be wrong). Cause even I, being interdenominational, and knowing friends who aren't Catholics, can tell you that you CAN fall away from your Faith, cause Faith without works is dead. So Catholics refer to the term 'Saved' as you are completely, and finally, unfallible when you get to heaven, so therefore, saved from sin. Where Protestants use the term 'Saved' in reference to being 'Born Again', in other words, they mean the same thing in that sense. Though personally the reason I like calling it being 'Saved' sometimes is cause it is written, "Calling things as if they are, that aren't." (something like that, I'm powerphrasing) Cause I wanna believe that person isn't going to fall away. Since I'm sure my Catholic bretheren here should agree that there is power in our words, so we ought to call in with our mouth the things of God. We have authority, cause of Jesus Well anyway, I figured maybe this thread would be good to learning how to understand eachother, not to try to convert one another. Also not to go off topic, but I have a little statement to make: I figured since I'm here in the phatmass forum, I wanna help build others up and share my personal experiances and things I've encountered with God. So that if anyone is lacking something in their Walk, maybe my words can help that someone and maybe that someone will have a word that I need to hear too, and something to me that I never knew about. But anyway, it's opened to all faiths so let the posting begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 (edited) [quote]For an example: When Catholics say you are 'Saved' when you get to heaven, yet Protestants say you are 'Saved' when you accept Christ into your heart, are two different views of being 'Saved' or 'Born Again'.[/quote] Now I could be wrong about this.... You cannot be saved until after death. Christ suffered and died for us, which justified us. We are justified...our salvation is ongoing. If I may.. from a book I will never get rid of. Paul more clearly understood justification to be the [i]now[/i] result of Jesus' death and resurrection: he understood salvation to be the [i]Endtime[/i] result. This becomes clear upon reading Paul's words in Romans: "[i]Now[/i] that we have been justified by his blood, it is all the more certain that we [i]shall[/i] be saved by him from God's wrath" (5:9, emphases added) Thus, if a sidewalk preacher in Paul's day had asked him, "Have you been saved, Brother?" Paul would have perhaps replied, "I've been justified, Brother. My salvation is still taking place." 'The People of the Way' -by Anthony E. Gilles Peace all. Edited May 27, 2004 by Quietfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 im learning a great deal from you quietfire. awesome. raph, i think you got the perfect heart for learning, im glad your here. i think your going be awesome on learning the Catholic Faith. God bless you! +JMJ+ Ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be open unto you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Raphael Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='May 27 2004, 02:22 PM'] Now I could be wrong about this.... You cannot be saved until after death. Christ suffered and died for us, which justified us. We are justified...our salvation is ongoing. If I may.. from a book I will never get rid of. Paul more clearly understood justification to be the [i]now[/i] result of Jesus' death and resurrection: he understood salvation to be the [i]Endtime[/i] result. This becomes clear upon reading Paul's words in Romans: "[i]Now[/i] that we have been justified by his blood, it is all the more certain that we [i]shall[/i] be saved by him from God's wrath" (5:9, emphases added) Thus, if a sidewalk preacher in Paul's day had asked him, "Have you been saved, Brother?" Paul would have perhaps replied, "I've been justified, Brother. My salvation is still taking place." 'The People of the Way' -by Anthony E. Gilles Peace all. [/quote] Again, you have agreed with what I was saying, just told me through a different viewpoint But I'm just showing you, that what the Protestants call it, while it may have a different meaning to Catholics. But despite of it all, we both mean the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Raphael Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 [quote name='littleflower' date='JMJ+May 27 2004, 03:05 PM'] im learning a great deal from you quietfire. awesome. raph, i think you got the perfect heart for learning, im glad your here. i think your going be awesome on learning the Catholic Faith. God bless you! +JMJ+ Ask and you shall recieve, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be open unto you. [/quote] And thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Speaking specifically to the justification issue, there is a great debate on Scott Hahn's website which I think clearly articulates justification from a Protestant and Catholic viewpoint. [url="http://www.mindspring.com/~jdarcy/files/justify.htm"]Justification Debate[/url] I think there are indeed many differences which are merely semantic, but there are also some real and clearly defined distinctions in theology between Catholics and Protestants. The tough part is getting past the vocabulary differences to the meat of the distinctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Raphael Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 Ok thanks dude, I'll take a look at it later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 Anytime, Dude. Glad to oblige. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 AR, you are right to identify that there are differences between protestants and catholics in the understanding of certain words that are commonly used. It can be problematic at times for protestants who convert to the Catholic church.....it's like having to learn the language all over again! The concept of saved is vastly different in protestant understanding to catholic understanding however - there are some good references to this difference in other active threads here. [quote] But what it only means is, Catholics know that you can lose your salvation during your life if you decide to backslide and fall away from the Faith. Yet little do some know that, that's what also Protestants teach (except maybe some Baptists, I dunno, could be wrong). Cause even I, being interdenominational, and knowing friends who aren't Catholics, can tell you that you CAN fall away from your Faith, cause Faith without works is dead. So Catholics refer to the term 'Saved' as you are completely, and finally, unfallible when you get to heaven, so therefore, saved from sin. Where Protestants use the term 'Saved' in reference to being 'Born Again', in other words, they mean the same thing in that sense. [/quote] The protestant denominations which I spent some time in did not accept that I was a christian even though I had been baptised 'in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit' in the anglican church, until I had a 'born again' experience - only after that was I considered 'saved'. People who 'backslide and fall away from the faith' were considered as never having had a true 'born again' experience in the first place. A catholic is 'born again' at baptism. It is important that the distictions between protestant and catholic understanding of the concept of 'saved' and 'born again' are clear in our mind. The distinction between us is what leads many protestants to say that catholics are not Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Raphael Posted May 27, 2004 Author Share Posted May 27, 2004 Well I don't agree either when they say: that if you blackslide it doesn't mean you were really Born Again. How can they say that anyway? I mean even Lucifer was fallible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 27, 2004 Share Posted May 27, 2004 It's a good question. It's the 'get out' clause which enables the 'once saved always saved' doctrine to appear to make sense. If a person subscribes to the doctrine of OSAS then in theory it doesn't matter how much sin you continue to do or how you live your life, you're still going to get to heaven anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Raphael Posted May 28, 2004 Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 Well as I always say, that's just wrong lol. True Spiritfilled Christians know that you can lose your salvation. But ya, your right. Infact it says so in the Bible (I forget where though), "Beware that your name be blotted out of the Lambs book of life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quietfire Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 so true. Although God promised he would never allow us to cease to exist. Which is good... and bad if you refuse him. (his Love) Could anyone imagine spending eternity (!!!) in such a place where one is separated from God. I couldnt even begin to imagine that torture. Its sad that those there are there by choice, of thier free will. Only to realize that that was the worse choice they could ever had made. The chief end of man is to glorify God. Peace all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Archangel Raphael, What blocks your bridge to the Catholic Church? Just curious? Pax Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 There are books that discuss the differeces in the way Catholics and Protestants use language. One such book is by James Akin of Catholic answers on justification, where the subject is explored at length by someone who knows his stuff. Akin, a convert, is brilliant. I think this thread is heading for muddy water. Catholic doctrine is being misrepresented. Its dangerous to assume that Catholics and Protestants "mean the same thing" but use different words. This subject is better left to someone like a Jimmy Akin or a Scott Hahn. None of us here has enough smarts to discuss it. Maybe we should all just read the debate on Catholic Answers that Sojourner posted. I've read it. Case closed. My 2 cents. Over and out. JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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