Religion_Binge Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 "We should remember that God will not ask the impossible from somebody, so if you have never been shown or taught the fullness of the Divine Revelation (or been mis-taught), but are doing your best to seek after that then it is POSSIBLE that Christ will still cover you, but that is something we can not judge. We do know that Christ gave the keys to Peter and the Church so we can have a certainty in our faith as Catholics. God calls us legitimately in a number of ways and especially trying to carry out God's work is not something that is "void" so much as can be made fuller or more complete." I think the question of salvation is a very pertinent, as Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye alludes to in some posts... If Christ covers you by your membership to a particular organization- physical membership, emotional/spiritual membership, for lack of a better phrase (and in this case, being the Catholic Church), than most of humanity will not be covered. Right? Unless their is provision for those who are ignorant in your faith statements somewhere? I tend to agree with the Delivery Boy (nice name!) that it is a very tricky business trying to decide what is and is not a church....if their is a group of individuals gathered for the express purpose of worshiping Jesus Christ, what kind of God would turn them away? Not the God I read about in Scripture.... But back to the question of salvation. In a global village of 1000 people, only approximately 300 of those individuals would be labeled "Christian." Of these 300, about 2/3 are Catholic. So: 200 individuals out of every 1000, ie 20%. If salvation is connected to the Catholic Church only, 80% of the world has missed out. Does that jive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 "We should remember that God will not ask the impossible from somebody, so if you have never been shown or taught the fullness of the Divine Revelation (or been mis-taught), but are doing your best to seek after that then it is POSSIBLE that Christ will still cover you, but that is something we can not judge. We do know that Christ gave the keys to Peter and the Church so we can have a certainty in our faith as Catholics. God calls us legitimately in a number of ways and especially trying to carry out God's work is not something that is "void" so much as can be made fuller or more complete." I think the question of salvation is a very pertinent, as Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye alludes to in some posts... If Christ covers you by your membership to a particular organization- physical membership, emotional/spiritual membership, for lack of a better phrase (and in this case, being the Catholic Church), than most of humanity will not be covered. Right? Unless their is provision for those who are ignorant in your faith statements somewhere? I tend to agree with the Delivery Boy (nice name!) that it is a very tricky business trying to decide what is and is not a church....if their is a group of individuals gathered for the express purpose of worshiping Jesus Christ, what kind of God would turn them away? Not the God I read about in Scripture.... But back to the question of salvation. In a global village of 1000 people, only approximately 300 of those individuals would be labeled "Christian." Of these 300, about 2/3 are Catholic. So: 200 individuals out of every 1000, ie 20%. If salvation is connected to the Catholic Church only, 80% of the world has missed out. Does that jive? Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. All the categorical strength and point of this aphorism lies in its tautology. Outside the Church there is no salvation, because salvation is the Church" (G. Florovsky, "Sobornost: the Catholicity of the Church", in The Church of God, p. 53). Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: "How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!" (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a "visible" and an "invisible Church", yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say. —Kallistos Ware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quid Est Veritas? Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 It appears that the original question was framed within the realm of Canon Law and therefore is not directly related to who is "saved" and who is not. Rather it has to do with the Catholic definition of worship and whether Protestants can fully worship God as He intended since they do not celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass. The Church believes that God recognises all good works as worthy of merit and leaves those who have not accepted the Catholic faith to His mercy. But She also teaches that the sure path to salvation is found only by following Her teachings as described by the Magisterium, not heresies. And as for deducing that the Church, or anyone on this forum, is saying that black people are not saved, that is quite incorrect. One of the continents where the Church is growing and thriving most strongly is Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) First, physical buildings say nothing. The Church cannot contradict herself, though her members are imperfect and sometimes do. Second, nobody said a thing about black people, so I have no idea what you are talking about.Most black christians in america are protostant or non denominational...They aren't Catholic...You are saying where they go to worship isn't "Church"....Some in this thread are saying their baptisim isn't valid because they aren't Catholic...That is what I'm talking about...Happy Divine Mercy Sunday...Godbless everybody... Edited April 7, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 And like Jesus said in Matthew 18 20 wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I am there among them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Most black christians in america are protostant or non denominational...They aren't Catholic...You are saying where they go to worship isn't "Church"....Some in this thread are saying their baptisim isn't valid because they aren't Catholic...That is what I'm talking about...Happy Divine Mercy Sunday...Godbless everybody... Them being black has literally nothing to do with it, and it is hugely dishonest to try to make an issue out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 And you're talking a mostly about black americans. THe Catholic church I believe is growing quite well in Africa. I heard a lot of people over there are black. But D-boy I share your concerns. It's not easy to look at someone who seems to be sincerely following God and say "your salvation is suspect." I see it like this. If someone is sincerely following God, then God will know that and He will judge accordingly, right? But that's for God to say. We can't say that because we believe that God gave us a visible church and the sacraments therein as a sure path to salvation. We can't see hearts. If it's any consolation to you a lot of protestant christians think that the CC is the whore of Babylon and/or we are idol worhippers who are probably or definitely going to hell. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Them being black has literally nothing to do with it, and it is hugely dishonest to try to make an issue out of it. I agree. After all, race is merely a human social construct, and the discussion in this thread is not about the politically correct views in connection with "race" that are really peculiar to the United States. God is not a "respecter of persons" as scripture says, which is an archaic way of saying that God does not care what color a person's skin is, because He loves all that He has created. Now with that nonsense out of the way perhaps we can get back to the actual point under review, that is, to a discussion of the theology of the sacraments and their connection (or lack thereof) to the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) You can call it nonsense all you want...God knows what people have been through and takes that into account...I wasn't calling anyone out on being racist but I was just going a little deeper with what was being said...When you say protostant and non denominational churches aren't churches youre talking to black christian america wether you like it or not...Apotheoun when you say their baptism isn't valid speak for yourself...I want nothin to do with that hate... Edited April 7, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) You can call it nonsense all you want...God knows what people have been through and takes that into account...I wasn't calling anyone out on being racist but I was just going a little deeper with what was being said...When you say protostant and non denominational churches aren't churches your talking to black christian america wether you like it or not...Apotheoun when you say their baptism isn't valid speak for yourself...I want nothin to do with that hate... We are not discussing the individual things that God "takes into account." Instead, we are discussing sacramental theology and the nature of the Church. Sorry if you do not like the actual topic. Moreover, I have not said what I believe at all in this thread. All I have done is to contrast Catholic teaching with Orthodox teaching. Edited April 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Just like I want nothin to do with the hate saying the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Fair enough Apotheoun...And may Godbless you all your days... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) Sheesh... We know where the truth is. We do not know where it is not. We know that the Church has truth. As for those who are not in it, the efficacy of their faith and practice is judged by God alone. May He have mercy on their souls. It has already been said that the Protestants have ecclesial Communities that cannot be called Churches according to Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Responses to some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine of the Church. Either this is not an authoritative document (in which case, please explain) or I don't see how this thread can have so much discussion on it. Protestants have wonderful church-like communities that in their incomplete understanding operates to their knowledge as a church. It last things that define the Church as a Church. Edited April 7, 2013 by Light and Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 Just like I want nothin to do with the hate saying the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon... http://youtu.be/E29uRP7hjBA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) The following answer to a question about baptism is from the website of the Coptic (i.e., Oriental) Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States: Question: How would the Coptic Orthodox Church receive someone who has been baptized at the protestant church and Chrismated at the Eastern Orthodox Church? Answer: In our Coptic Orthodox Church, baptism is a mystery (sacrament) that only an ordained priest or bishop can officiate. The Protestant Church does not believe in priesthood; and baptism is not considered a mystery but just a sign of joining the Christian body of believers. For the Eastern Orthodox Church to recognize this Protestant baptism is unfortunately a lack of understanding of the whole mystery. A prospective convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church is usually asked about his/her baptism; and if he/she [w]as not baptized in the Orthodox faith by an officially ordained priest, this baptism is not valid and he/she has to be baptized. Source: Coptic Orthodox Diocese of the Southern United States Edited April 7, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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