Were Jews Ever Really Slaves In Egypt, Or Is Passover A Myth?

[Fidei Defensor]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the-jewish-thinker/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844

 

"Where is the real proof - archeological evidence, state records and primary sources?"

 

 

[mortify]

What moves you to ask such a question?

[Fidei Defensor]

What moves you to ask such a question?

I thought it was an interesting article.  Any thoughts?

[Basilisa Marie]

I think it's a false dichotomy, much like saying that if the world wasn't created in seven literal days then the Bible isn't true.  The exodus may not have happened in the same literal way that it's described in the Bible. But that doesn't mean that God didn't make a covenant with Israel, that God didn't save Israel, or that Israel wasn't under God's protection. 

 

It seems to me that there are two ways of going about questions like this.  The first raises these questions to prove that a religion is false, the second raises them out of genuine scholarly (and often pious) inquiry.  The article is firmly in the first category, trying to argue that Jews and Muslims are both dumb because their religions are based on lies.  It's possible to talk about who built the pyramids without being so offensive as that. 

[KnightofChrist]

The Merneptah Stele https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

http://www.jewishjournal.com/passover/article/passover_proof_lies_in_egyptian_hieroglyphs_20100324

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/031020/20exodus.htm

Edited April 1, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[Amppax]

Interesting, I'll have to look into this.  

[Socrates]

If the Exodus were simply a bs myth made up by the Hebrews, why would they claim to be enslaved by the Egyptians in the first place?

 

Generally, national or tribal myths try to make the people who made them look as great as possible - mighty, invincible, and subject or slaves to none.  The Jews claiming to be enslaved, if in fact they were not, would make no sense.

 

The Egyptian Pharaohs ruled as absolute "god-kings," and would have good reason to not allow any recording of the Exodus of the Israelites, as it would have been a huge embarrassment to the Pharaoh, who would not wish such a blemish on his record to be recorded for posterity.

Of course, that will not likely convince those eager to prove everything in the Bible a pack of lies, but claiming the Jewish leaders simply made up the story of enslavement to the Egyptians seems more unbelievable. 

[Fidei Defensor]

If the Exodus were simply a bs myth made up by the Hebrews, why would they claim to be enslaved by the Egyptians in the first place?

 

Generally, national or tribal myths try to make the people who made them look as great as possible - mighty, invincible, and subject or slaves to none.  The Jews claiming to be enslaved, if in fact they were not, would make no sense.

 

The Egyptian Pharaohs ruled as absolute "god-kings," and would have good reason to not allow any recording of the Exodus of the Israelites, as it would have been a huge embarrassment to the Pharaoh, who would not wish such a blemish on his record to be recorded for posterity.

Of course, that will not likely convince those eager to prove everything in the Bible a pack of lies, but claiming the Jewish leaders simply made up the story of enslavement to the Egyptians seems more unbelievable. 

It doesn't seem inconceivable to me that they would have a story of being enslaved and then rescued by the power of God. I'm not saying I believe that, but just because its about enslavement doesn't make it implausible. 

[4588686]

If the Exodus were simply a bs myth made up by the Hebrews, why would they claim to be enslaved by the Egyptians in the first place?

 

 

 

Generally, national or tribal myths try to make the people who made them look as great as possible - mighty, invincible, and subject or slaves to none.  The Jews claiming to be enslaved, if in fact they were not, would make no sense.

 

I guess.  If you ignore the whole other half of the story where the Israeli God kind of, you know, rains a fiery vengeance down upon the Egyptian people.  And myths contain tragedy and self-deprecating tales all the time.  Maybe you've heard of one of our national (Anglo-Saxon) myths called Beowulf.   

 

WHY WOULD THEY RECORD BEOWULF'S GEATS FLEEING THE DRAGON IF IT WASN"T TRUE?!?!?!?!?!?

 

 

The Egyptian Pharaohs ruled as absolute "god-kings," and would have good reason to not allow any recording of the Exodus of the Israelites, as it would have been a huge embarrassment to the Pharaoh, who would not wish such a blemish on his record to be recorded for posterity.

Of course, that will not likely convince those eager to prove everything in the Bible a pack of lies, but claiming the Jewish leaders simply made up the story of enslavement to the Egyptians seems more unbelievable. 

 

 

Not true.  Egyptian history recorded calamity.  That's a common apolegitical claim which, like so many, has been throughly debunked by, you know, people who know what they're talking about.

Edited April 3, 2013 by Hasan

[Archaeology cat]

Calamity is recorded, yes. You do have to realise that their conception of history wasn't the same as ours, too. A calamity might be blamed on a pharoah being unfaithful to the gods (cue Akhenaten). Then again, a military rout can be spun as an Egyptian victory (eg: Kadesh). Official Egyptian records also tended to portray all foreigners as subordinates paying tribute to pharoah, whatever they were really doing. There are archaeological records of a large Near Eastern population in the Second Intermediate Period - the Hyksos. These were later expelled and/or assimilated under Kamose and Ahmose. Josephus identifies the Hyksos with Israel and an "exodus" described by Manetho. I'd recommend reading some of Ken Kitchen's works, personally. Neil Asher can also be helpful.

[Socrates]

I guess.  If you ignore the whole other half of the story where the Israeli God kind of, you know, rains a fiery vengeance down upon the Egyptian people.  And myths contain tragedy and self-deprecating tales all the time.  Maybe you've heard of one of our national (Anglo-Saxon) myths called Beowulf.   

 

WHY WOULD THEY RECORD BEOWULF'S GEATS FLEEING THE DRAGON IF IT WASN"T TRUE?!?!?!?!?!?

Anyone would have fled from that dragon.

 

If the author/s of Exodus were simply making up a story out of thin air, a hard-fought battle against the mighty Egyptian army and glorious victory would have worked fine.  There would be no need to include the degradation and humiliation of years of enslavement, unless, of course, the Israelites in fact were enslaved to the Egyptians.  (Hardly a fanciful occurrence, as many of the surrounding peoples were slaves to the Egyptians.  Note also the links provided by KoC, with evidence that the Israelites were in fact  in Egypt.)

 

Also, oral tradition and memory were very strong and important to ancient peoples (and more recent people in traditional and "primitive" cultures).  The events of Exodus were regarded by the Hebrews as their real history, and very central to their story as a people.  It is unlikely that someone would have been able to simply invent the story of their enslavement to the Egyptians out of whole cloth, and sell everybody on it, if their ancestors had not actually been enslaved in Egypt.

 

 

Not true.  Egyptian history recorded calamity.  That's a common apolegitical claim which, like so many, has been throughly debunked by, you know, people who know what they're talking about.

 

The story of the Exodus of the Hebrew slaves would not just be calamity, but a complete personal embarrassment to the Pharaoh (likely Ramses II), and he would have good reason to have this particular episode in his reign not recorded for posterity.  Additionally Dutch scientist Greta Hort has shown that the plagues on Egypt recorded in Exodus (blood-colored water, frogs, locusts, disease) would correspond with events associated by the periodic severe flooding of the Nile which would have occurred at this time.

 

Nothing's been debunked - this is an old ongoing debate.