Jewish Understanding Of Christ

[beatitude]

To be fair, almost all the orthodox Jews I have met (including a few rabbis) have been far more respectful than that. Perhaps it's just the particular circles I was moving in, as any orthodox Jew happy to talk theology with a Catholic is probably going to be polite and thoughtful about others' religious beliefs.

 

What's funny is how many modern Israelis actually espouse a morality very similar to the one that Jesus espoused, and will actually acknowledge He was a good man and teacher (because Israelis generally are much more secure in their Jewishness than American Jews), but they won't consider for a second that Jesus was the Messiah.

 

This has not been my experience in Israel. In fact, I quickly learnt to tone down how I talk about my faith, because more religiously observant people seemed to take the mere mention of Jesus as a sign that I was trying to convert them (even if they were the ones who initiated the religious conversation in the first place). Proselytising being illegal there, I felt that I was treading on eggshells, as I didn't want to get into any trouble if people perceived me as a missionary. Secular people obviously couldn't care less, but they seemed to have a complete apathy to all religion.

[Gabriela]

Are you ethnically Jewish? I've always been curious as to how "gentile converts"  (for lack of a better term) to Judaism are treated.

 

No, I was not born Jewish. I converted. Converts are treated... in complicated fashion. It depends on the sect of Judaism, mostly. Overall, I'd say that, despite the Torah commands to treat the convert exactly the same as the native, and the Talmudic commands never to mention a convert's "past" to him (i.e., the fact that he is a convert), there is a great deal of suspicion and ethnic superiority among born Jews vis a vis converts. It's incredibly annoying, especially when the convert is a mitzah-observing, God-fearing Jew and the Yiddisher-than-thou native is a pork-fressing, Sabbath-desecrating atheist. But that's what conflating religion, ethnicity, and land-ownership gets you, I guess.

 

That being said, there were some who were welcoming and kind, who were typically very curious at first (i.e., "why in the world would you become a Jew?!"), but who, once their curiosity was satisfied, treated me just like any other Jew. This, however, was exceedingly rare. Pretty much anytime you stand out as different, it's going to be attributed to your having been (or even "being") a goy.

 

In this matter, secular Israelis are much more open and welcoming than the Orthodox, who tend to constantly question the kashrut of one's conversion, thus perpetually casting doubt on one's status as a Jew. For this reason, most Orthodox converts (and I dare say all ultra-Orthodox converts) never disclose to their communities that they're converts. Doing so could damage one's marriage prospects and cast doubt not just on one's own status as a Jew but that of one's children (and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren...) as well.

[BG45]

Sorry. That post seems to have upset a few people. I was just trying to answer the question. :-(

 

Oh don't be sorry, it was really informative! Your thoughtful responses throughout the thread have been informative and interesting.

[Gabriela]

To be fair, almost all the orthodox Jews I have met (including a few rabbis) have been far more respectful than that. Perhaps it's just the particular circles I was moving in, as any orthodox Jew happy to talk theology with a Catholic is probably going to be polite and thoughtful about others' religious beliefs.

 

 

This has not been my experience in Israel. In fact, I quickly learnt to tone down how I talk about my faith, because more religiously observant people seemed to take the mere mention of Jesus as a sign that I was trying to convert them (even if they were the ones who initiated the religious conversation in the first place). Proselytising being illegal there, I felt that I was treading on eggshells, as I didn't want to get into any trouble if people perceived me as a missionary. Secular people obviously couldn't care less, but they seemed to have a complete apathy to all religion.

 

I'd say that there are certainly Orthodox Jews who are respectful of others' beliefs in an ecumenical sense. And certainly there are those who would never bash anyone's religion or God even behind closed doors. I did not move in "ecumenical" circles. The ultra-Orthodox Jews I consorted with did not hang out with non-Jews, and most worked in 100% Jewish environments. You're probably hanging with "modern Orthodox" Jews, rather than ultra-Orthodox Jews. At least that's what it sounds like. An ultra-Orthodox Jew would immediately extricate himself from any conversation the second the name of Jesus was mentioned.

 

It's a common misconception that proselytization is illegal in Israel. It is only illegal to proselytize minors (people under 18). In fact, when I left Israel, the Messianic Jews there had just started a rather aggressive proselytization campaign in the streets of Tel Aviv. They were everywhere. And they got quite a bit of backlash over it. I don't know if they're still doing it, but knowing the leader of that particular group, I kinda' doubt they'd give up so easily. There have been multiple "specials" on Israeli tv about Messianic Jewish Israelis in the last five years or so. They totally baffle the average Israeli, who see them as absolute freakshows. 

 

When I mentioned that modern Israelis espouse a morality very similar to that taught by Jesus, I was referring to secular Israelis, not religious ones. Those totally apathetic to religion, believe it or not, will tell you they believe in "just being a good person". When you ask them what that means, it sounds an awful lot like Christianity!

[beatitude]

Most of them are modern Orthodox, yes, but two are charedi. Not typical charedim, though.

 

When you say you were consorting with ultra-Orthodox Jews - who do you mean by that? Did you convert charedi? I'm curious, as that must have been a pretty lengthy process. Do they know you're Catholic now?

 

If you could point me to any legal stuff that says proselytism is legal I'd be grateful, as I hear all the time from certain Israeli friends that it's not. I'd like to be able to show them something definitive. I live in Bethlehem, where we often get international missionaries, and they are sometimes unsure about what they are and aren't allowed to do under Israeli law as well.

[mortify]

Personally I don't care what others think about Jesus

[Gabriela]

Most of them are modern Orthodox, yes, but two are charedi. Not typical charedim, though.

 

When you say you were consorting with ultra-Orthodox Jews - who do you mean by that? Did you convert charedi? I'm curious, as that must have been a pretty lengthy process. Do they know you're Catholic now?

 

If you could point me to any legal stuff that says proselytism is legal I'd be grateful, as I hear all the time from certain Israeli friends that it's not. I'd like to be able to show them something definitive. I live in Bethlehem, where we often get international missionaries, and they are sometimes unsure about what they are and aren't allowed to do under Israeli law as well.

 

I studied in Crown Heights for about three weeks (the "Yeshivacation" program), spent every Shabbos and chag with Chabadnikim for about two years; every Shabbos and chag with charedim from Meah Shearim for another year; every Shabbos and chag for another five months or so with charedim in the yishuvim in the West Bank. All during this time, I was in the process of converting charedi. I then studied at Nishmat in Jerusalem, where I went to complete the conversion, but left the midrasha when I decided not to go through with it. I had already completed one (Reform) conversion, and on the basis of that, I made aliyah after leaving Nishmat. (The Minister of the Interior at the time was liberal. Lucky me.)

 

None of my former charedi friends knows anything about me now. When you decide not to convert charedi, you're pretty much shunned. It's not done in an ugly fashion, but certainly no one makes special efforts to keep in touch, you know?

 

I'm not sure where to look for legal documents declaring that proselytism is legal. I volunteered for three years with Kav LaOved (do you know them?) while I was in Israel, so I was surrounded by lawyers of many faiths and ethnicities. I also volunteered with Musalaha (for sure you know them), and they had legal counsel as well. As a full-time volunteer with Immanuel Lutheran Church in Jaffa, I was told that it was illegal by the Norwegian leadership there, so it's commonly believed not just among Israelis but also (and maybe especially) foreigners. However, once I got "inside" Israeli Christian circles (especially those with lawyers), I was assured that it was not illegal except to minors. The activities of the Messianics in Tel Aviv guaranteed me of that. They wouldn't have been out there in droves if it were illegal. (Not to mention Israel is, after all, a democratic country that respects individuals' right to freedom of religion. So it just makes sense that it is not illegal.)

 

I suggest that you contact Musalaha or some other Christian legal defense organization in Israel and ask them for documentation. I seriously doubt you'll find it in English, though. I'm sure the government is very happy that the myth of illegality is so pervasive...

 

EDIT: Actually, you know what? I know someone I can ask. Let me send her an email. She might know where to find that documentation...

Edited April 1, 2013 by curiousing

[Judas Maccabaeus]

Judaism does not believe Jesus Christ to be the Messiah. After that, the views of Christ from the perspective of Judaism is vast and diverse. Read my friend, read on...