Pope Francis Washed The Feet Of 12 Young Detainees

[Basilisa Marie]

I don't see any uncharitable posts on this thread.

 

Oh, but we do flirt with that line (myself definitely included in that).  

 

I think part of the issue is that most of the controversial topics end up being really personal, or striking a really personal chord with some people. Plus we don't always explain ourselves clearly when we're just posting on a forum (again, myself included in all of this).  I think it's inevitable with a place like Phatmass, because it's meant to be welcoming to all flavors of Catholics (and non Catholics!) whereas other forums seem much more homogeneous, so you really don't have a diversity of opinion to try to be charitable about to begin with. 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

I don't see any uncharitable posts on this thread.

Me neither. I wasn't referring to this thread, just threads about the things XIX mentioned in general.

[Apotheoun]

Not true -- Tradition would still be off-limits.

As I said in another post, I do not accept the modern distinction between tradition and Tradition.

 

Postscript: see post #95

Edited March 30, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Slappo]

Seriously? We're really going to suggest that Pope Francis ISN'T chosen by the Holy Spirit?   :|

 

Them's fightin' words, bro.   

 

No Pope is chosen by the Holy Spirit directly except maybe you could say St. Peter was since he was elected by Christ. We can only hope and pray during a conclave that the Cardinal Electors are open and listen to God's will. At the same time, no one can claim that a particular Pope was wrongly picked as we don't know the will of God either.

[Brother Adam]

As I said in another post, I do not accept the modern distinction between tradition and Tradition.

 

Postscript: see post #95

 

I appreciate learning that. I had never been satisfied with the distinction between "little & big t" tradition. [mod] Edited~~ Catholic vs Catholic [/mod], implicitly giving permission to other priests to ignore laws that they don't like.. What texts do you recommend as a primer for learning more about the differences between the East & the West?

Edited April 3, 2013 by Roamin_Catholic
Cath vs Cath

[Brother Adam]

No Pope is chosen by the Holy Spirit directly except maybe you could say St. Peter was since he was elected by Christ. We can only hope and pray during a conclave that the Cardinal Electors are open and listen to God's will. At the same time, no one can claim that a particular Pope was wrongly picked as we don't know the will of God either.

 

Cardinal Ratzinger:

 

“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”

 

The electors choose the pope, the Holy Spirit works with the choice of the electors.

[penguin31]

[mod] EDITED~~Catholic vs Catholic [/mod]

 

By in this case ignoring rubrics and instead opting for the greater act of humility both symbolic and personal, I think Pope Francis has offered a tremendous display of the love and sacrifice that at least *should* unite us within theChurch. And I take specific offense to the word "damaging". Damaging implies a sustained negative influence.  He washed the feet of *prisoners*, both Christian and not (even Muslim), and both men and women. A *tremendous* symbol of humility, compassion, and service to his fellow human beings that I cannot even fathom Christ finding to be negative. 

Give me a living and functional Church reflective of the values that Christ himself actually taught and encouraged in us over a dusty museum of shallow rubrics and hollow traditions any day of the week. Rubrics and traditions are only worthwhile when they propagate the virtues of Christ and His eternal glory, love, and sacrifice for us all.

[Nihil Obstat]

It is a false dichotomy to suggest that adhering to rubrics implies a lack of humility, or that ignoring rubrics is inherently an act of humility.

 

I like how Fr. Z put it here:

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/i-am-thinking-about-those-red-shoes/

 

 

When I first learned to say the older form of the Mass of the Roman Rite, that is to say, when I first learned how to say Mass, because there has never been a single of day of my priesthood when I couldn’t say it, I admit that I was deeply uncomfortable with some of the gestures prescribed by the rubrics.  I even resisted them.  For example, the kissing of the objects to be given to the priest, and the priest and the kissing of the priest’s hands… that gave me the willies.

I resisted those solita oscula because I had fallen into the trap of thinking that they made me look too important.

The fact is that none of those gestures were about me at all.  They are about the priest insofar as he isalter Christus, not insofar as he is “John”.  For “John” all of that would be ridiculous.  For Father, alter Christus, saying Mass, it is barely enough.

When you see the deacon and subdeacon in the older form of Holy Mass holding, for example, the edges of the priest’s cope when they are in procession, or when you see them kissing the priest’s hand, or bowing to him, or waiting on him or deferring to him or – what in non-Catholic eyes appears to be something like adoration or emperor worship – you are actually seeing them preparing the priest for his sacrificial slaughter on the altar of Golgotha.

 

 

Do read the whole thing though.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Nihil Obstat

[Brother Adam]

By in this case ignoring rubrics and instead opting for the greater act of humility both symbolic and personal, I think Pope Francis has offered a tremendous display of the love and sacrifice that at least *should* unite us within theChurch. And I take specific offense to the word "damaging". Damaging implies a sustained negative influence.  He washed the feet of *prisoners*, both Christian and not (even Muslim), and both men and women. A *tremendous* symbol of humility, compassion, and service to his fellow human beings that I cannot even fathom Christ finding to be negative. 

Give me a living and functional Church reflective of the values that Christ himself actually taught and encouraged in us over a dusty museum of shallow rubrics and hollow traditions any day of the week. Rubrics and traditions are only worthwhile when they propagate the virtues of Christ and His eternal glory, love, and sacrifice for us all.

 

It is negative if it is done out of a sense of pride because you find the liturgy to be a "dusty museum of shallow rubrics and hollow traditions". I think more of Pope Francis than that though. Even if done for compassionate reasons, it can still be a negative action. The ends do not always justify the means, or we would be handing out condoms left and right with the rest of liberal society. The anabaptists would certainly agree with your assessment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the liturgy. I recommend reading the Introduction to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.

 

As Apo said, if the pope wants to wash the foot of every single person in Rome outside the liturgy, no one can find fault in that. Or else, as Dr. Ed Peter's noted:

 

A pope’s ignoring of a law is not an abrogation of the law but, especially where his action reverberated around the world, it seems to render the law moot. For the sake of good order, then, the Mandatum rubrics should be modified to permit the washing of women’s feet or, perhaps upon the advice of Scriptural and theological experts, the symbolism of apostolic ministry asserted by some to be contained in the rite should be articulated and the rule reiterated. What is not good is to leave a crystal clear law on the books but show no intention of expecting anyone to follow it. That damages the effectiveness of law across the board

.

Actions of the popes are not above reproach. Even Paul rebuked Peter to his face (Gal. 2). That is not to say it is within my authority to rebuke the pope, or that he has done anything deserving of rebuke. It is to say it is possible that the actions of a pope could be negative, even sinful. History has taught us that some popes have done grievously evil things.

 

I have not come to any definite judgment, but I do find his actions problematic. I hope that Francis himself will follow up with this to avoid the possibility of scandalizing some of the faithful.

[Nihil Obstat]

More from that same article, because it was so well written.

 

 

 

The use of beautiful marble in the church building, precious fabrics and metals for vestments and vessels, music that requires true art and skill to perform, ritual gestures which to worldly eyes seem to be the stuff of bygone eras of royals and the like, all underscore the fact that step by step during Holy Mass the priest is being readied for the sacrifice, which – mysteriously – he himself performs.

Back when I resisted the liturgical kissing of my hand when being handed a chain, spoon or chalice, I had made the mistake of imagining myself to be more humble by that resistance.  That was a mistake.  Ironically, my resistance to those gestures turned the gestures into being about me.  Submission to the gestures, on the other hand, erases the priest’s own person and helps him to be what he needs to be in that moment: priest, victim, alter Christus.   The trappings, the rubrics, the gestures erase the priest’s poor person.  Resisting these things runs the risk of making them all about the priest again.

In a sense, I had made the objection of Judas about the precious nard which the woman brought to the Lord.  Jesus responded that the precious stuff should be kept for His Body, which was to be sacrificed.  People who object that we should have only poor liturgy are falling into the argument of Judas.  We must submit to the precious and sublime in recognition of the truth of what is going on.   To pit the sublime and complex and precious and beautiful against the low, simple and humble is schizophrenic and not Catholic.

There is no real conflict of the humble and the sublime in liturgical worship.

 

 

 

[penguin31]

The anabaptists would certainly agree with your assessment of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the liturgy.

I always did find the Amish to have a certain coolness about them. :P

Edited March 30, 2013 by penguin31

[Anastasia13]

The Holy Spirit doesnt choose the Pope, men do

 

??? That's a Catholic view???

[Brother Adam]

I always did find the Amish to have a certain coolness about them. :P

 

Cool in its simplicity, but a lot dirtier. Outdoor latrines? No indoor plumbing or hot water heaters? No thanks.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

??? That's a Catholic view???

As Slappo and Brother Adam noted:

 

Pope Benny: 

 

 

“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”

 

Brother Adam:

The electors choose the pope, the Holy Spirit works with the choice of the electors.

 

[penguin31]

Cool in its simplicity, but a lot dirtier. Outdoor latrines? No indoor plumbing or hot water heaters? No thanks.

 

Psssh. Plumbing is overrated.  Wait a minute, the Amish don't drive.  VIVA CATHOLICISM!