Lilllabettt Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Humility or lack there of is a virtue that is almost impossible to measure accurately - in oneself, let alone in others. Whether someone else is truly humble or not is a mystery except to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 That would follow if the rite was merely a matter of ecclesiastical law, but it is not about "law"; instead, it is about Tradition (i.e., it is about commemorating what Christ did in instituting priestly service within the Church). That said, if the pope can alter tradition, he can change anything. Not true -- Tradition would still be off-limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 That is not what we believe. The Holy Spirit is working through these men to choose. Otherwise, if you are correct, the Holy Spirit has abandoned His Church, which Christ said would guide His Church. You are right, the Holy Spirit works in them as He works in all but that does not mean the conclave is inspired. The Cardinals, like all men with free will, are capable of ignoring the Holy Spirit. Do you suppose the Holy Spirit chose the Popes during the Saeculum obscurum, aka Pornocracy? I think it more like they were the result of man's doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Pope Francis debates are really taking on the same trajectory as Communion in the hand, SSPX, modesty and death penalty debates; aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToJesusMyHeart Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Pope Francis debates are really taking on the same trajectory as Communion in the hand, SSPX, modesty and death penalty debates; aren't they? Every one of those debates have legitimate concerns on both sides, and so does this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Every one of those debates have legitimate concerns on both sides, and so does this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Every one of those debates have legitimate concerns on both sides, and so does this one. That's probably the reason why they're going in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 You are right, the Holy Spirit works in them as He works in all but that does not mean the conclave is inspired. The Cardinals, like all men with free will, are capable of ignoring the Holy Spirit. Do you suppose the Holy Spirit chose the Popes during the Saeculum obscurum, aka Pornocracy? I think it more like they were the result of man's doing. Seriously? We're really going to suggest that Pope Francis ISN'T chosen by the Holy Spirit? :| Them's fightin' words, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Seriously? We're really going to suggest that Pope Francis ISN'T chosen by the Holy Spirit? :| Them's fightin' words, bro. It's a popular misconception that the conclave is inspired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) Nevermind. Happy Triduum, peeps. Edited March 30, 2013 by Basilisa Marie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin31 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 While reading the various comments about Pope Francis' eschewing many of the adornments of the office and his overall set of actions since assuming the Papacy, I was reminded of the following: Luke 14; Verses 7-11: He told a parable to those who had been invited, noticing how they were choosing the places of honor at the table. “When you are invited by someone to a wedding banquet, do not recline at table in the place of honor. A more distinguished guest than you may have been invited by him, and the host who invited both of you may approach you and say, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then you would proceed with embarrassment to take the lowest place. [b]Rather, when you are invited, go and take the lowest place so that when the host comes to you he may say, ‘My friend, move up to a higher position.’ Then you will enjoy the esteem of your companions at the table. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.â€[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) The office of a bishop, and the office of a priest or a deacon as well, is exalted, but the man who holds the office is not. I do not reverence the priest at my parish just because he is a real nice guy, which he is; instead, I reverence him because he has been consecrated to service as an icon of Christ. To put it another way, when I honor my spiritual father, I do not exalt him personally; rather, I exalt his office, and my act of veneration passes on to the prototype of all priests, i.e., to Christ the Lord. Edited March 30, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Every one of those debates have legitimate concerns on both sides, and so does this one. I agree completely. Sadly, we phatmassers don't have a glittering record of being able to discuss their differences charitably or logically. It's annoying because I'd love to have a thoughtful and nuanced discussion about these topics--Phatmass isn't the place I would go to find such discussions. This thread isn't doing much better; I hope I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToJesusMyHeart Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I agree completely. Sadly, we phatmassers don't have a glittering record of being able to discuss their differences charitably or logically. It's annoying because I'd love to have a thoughtful and nuanced discussion about these topics--Phatmass isn't the place I would go to find such discussions. This thread isn't doing much better; I hope I am wrong. You've got that right, unfortunately. It would be really nice if we could charitably discuss these things, but so far that's been a rare happenstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 I don't see any uncharitable posts on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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