Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 That is sad. I do not have the ability to change your mind, only God can do that. You can't even do that alone, that is, without His grace. The disturbing thing is that God desires all mankind to reside with him in heaven but doesn't bother to grant the gift of faith to everyone, and allows them to "choose" hell despite not being given the grace to "choose" otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Even if a man convinces himself that there is a God, that would not be faith. Faith is a gift, it is not something that we can earn by our thoughts, our works, or our studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Should I care whether a man "respects religion"? I can't give anyone faith, but I can pray for others to be open to God's call, and I do that all the time. (I should say that despite my lack of respect for religion, I deeply respect you and your intelligence. You make discussion worthwhile.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Even if a man convinces himself that there is a God, that would not be faith. Faith is a gift, it is not something that we can earn by our thoughts, our works, or our studies. If I entertain your premise of faith as a gift, that still doesn't explain why God doesn't give the gift to everyone and in doing so essentially gives them no choice but to "choose" hell. And I realize you will tell me that you can't know why it is this way, but I just wanted to put that conundrum out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The disturbing thing is that God desires all mankind to reside with him in heaven but doesn't bother to grant the gift of faith to everyone, and allows them to "choose" hell despite not being given the grace to "choose" otherwise. God loves all that He has created, and He gives sufficient grace to every man on earth to be saved, but in addition to grace God gave us free will, and He will not contravene our free choices, even if we choose not to respond to Him. That is why as I said earlier, it is a mystery to me why I have faith and you do not. But I do pray for you, because I know that God is calling to you, as he calls every single human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 What is hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 What is hell? Hell is other people. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 God loves all that He has created, and He gives sufficient grace to every man on earth to be saved, but in addition to grace God gave us free will, and He will not contravene our free choices, even if we choose not to respond to Him. That is why as I said earlier, it is a mystery to me why I have faith and you do not. But I do pray for you, because I know that God is calling to you, as he calls every single human being. I just don't understand how you can say that on one hand, faith is a gift and so those without it cannot reason into it but rather must be granted the grace to have it, but then on the other hand say that God won't stand in the way of free will and so men are free to choose. How can one be truly choosing if they aren't granted the gift of faith in the first place? It's not as if I secretly know deep down that God is real but I reject him anyway. So do I have the grace of faith or not? And if I don't, how could I be seen as choosing to separate myself from God and go to hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 To paraphrase what Roman Catholics say at mass . . . faith is a mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 To paraphrase what Roman Catholics say at mass . . . faith is a mystery. aka who the hell knows. I submit that we agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I just don't understand how you can say that on one hand, faith is a gift and so those without it cannot reason into it but rather must be granted the grace to have it, but then on the other hand say that God won't stand in the way of free will and so men are free to choose. How can one be truly choosing if they aren't granted the gift of faith in the first place? It's not as if I secretly know deep down that God is real but I reject him anyway. So do I have the grace of faith or not? And if I don't, how could I be seen as choosing to separate myself from God and go to hell? I don't believe I said that people must be "granted grace." I believe - as an Eastern Christian - that grace is inherently present in everyone, because you see, God is grace. I am - like the ancient Church Fathers - a panentheist. Why I have responded to God's grace and you have not is a mystery, and it is not really a mystery in God as much as it is a mystery in me and a mystery in you. I do not know why you have not responded to the grace that has been present in you since your conception, and I have. No doubt it has something to do with free will, and our individual exercise of it, but I have no special insight into the inner workings of your mind, and so I cannot say why our responses have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) I submit that we agree to disagree. Thank you for stating the obvious. :smile3: Edited March 28, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) I just don't understand how you can say that on one hand, faith is a gift and so those without it cannot reason into it but rather must be granted the grace to have it, but then on the other hand say that God won't stand in the way of free will and so men are free to choose. How can one be truly choosing if they aren't granted the gift of faith in the first place? It's not as if I secretly know deep down that God is real but I reject him anyway. So do I have the grace of faith or not? And if I don't, how could I be seen as choosing to separate myself from God and go to hell? How can one be absolutely sure one has not been given the gift of faith, but that person hasn't yet taken the gift "granted" or given? Edited March 28, 2013 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 I don't believe I said that people must be "granted grace." I believe - as an Eastern Christian - that grace is inherently present in everyone, because you see, God is grace. I am - like the ancient Church Fathers - a panentheist. Why I have responded to God's grace and you have not is a mystery, and it is not really a mystery in God as much as it is a mystery in me and a mystery in you. I do not know why you have not responded to the grace that has been present in you since your conception, and I have. No doubt it has something to do with free will, and our individual exercise of it, but I have no special insight into the inner workings of your mind, and so I cannot say why our responses have been different. Alright, I can accept the premise that grace is inherently present in everyone, but that still doesn't explain the who granting of faith issue. If God so desires everyone to love him and abide with him, why not grant everyone that gift? It doesn't contradict free will because you can reject gifts. However, one cannot be faulted for their disbelief in God if they never had the gift in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 How can one be absolutely sure one has not been given the gift of faith, but that person hasn't yet taken the gift "granted" or given? One can't. But how do you accept a gift you don't even know you have? One assumes that there must be some kind of push from God, some reason to accept the gift of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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