Fidei Defensor Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 The debate board has been dry lately. Lets shake that up! What basis is there to claim that the Bible is inerrant and inspired by God? Catholics place a lot of emphasis on Tradition being the major source of confidence in the collection of writings that makes up the Bible. However, what about other writings that were circulating in early Christianity that didn't make it into the Bible? What is the basis for rejecting those writings but accepting the ones that are in the Bible? Ready, set, go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-fish Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I guess folks are too scared to answer your debate. Not many philosophers. The Bible is without error. What part would be an error? If it were in error, it would lead us to sin. They rejected some writings because for chrissakes it was long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 I guess folks are too scared to answer your debate. Not many philosophers. The Bible is without error. What part would be an error? If it were in error, it would lead us to sin. They rejected some writings because for chrissakes it was long enough. That assumes that one accepts the premise that the Bible is true. Lets say I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well you see, a bunch of bishops got together and argued about what made it into the Bible. Revelation was almost left out, while the Shepard of Hermas almost made it in. We assume their decision was guided by the Holy Spirit. Bam. Faith. Next question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well you see, a bunch of bishops got together and argued about what made it into the Bible. Revelation was almost left out, while the Shepard of Hermas almost made it in. We assume their decision was guided by the Holy Spirit. Bam. Faith. Next question? What is the evidence that the Holy Spirit guided the decisions when there are clearly contradictions and differences in information within many of the books of the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 As the saying goes: “For those with faith, no evidence is necessary; for those without it, no evidence will suffice.†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 As the saying goes: “For those with faith, no evidence is necessary; for those without it, no evidence will suffice.†Don't mean you shouldn't try. There should at least be some evidence, because if there wasn't, I doubt you'd be believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Don't mean you shouldn't try. There should at least be some evidence, because if there wasn't, I doubt you'd be believers. If I was a Pelagian I would agree with you, but I am not. Why do I have faith in God? It is not because I reasoned it all out and came to the conclusion that there must be a God, because that would not be faith. Faith is an infused gift of grace, and why I have have it and you do not possess it is a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Can I or anyone else here prove by reason alone that God is tri-hypostatic? Nope. Can I prove by reason alone that the books contained in the bible are inspired? Nope. Faith is meta-rational, and it is required for salvation. In other words, faith is not just a help along the way to theosis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 If I was a Pelagian I would agree with you, but I am not. Why do I have faith in God? It is not because I reasoned it all out and came to the conclusion that there must be a God, because that would not be faith. Faith is an infused gift of grace, and why I have have it and you do not possess it is a mystery to me. I'm not suggesting you reasoned yourself into it. I am suggesting, however, that there has to be some reason(s) why you have remained a believer. Even having some semblance of faith being a gift from God is a reasoning, reasoning that God is truth because he has given you the grace to believe. If you didn't have reason to believe that, you wouldn't be clinging to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Can I or anyone else here prove by reason alone that God is tri-hypostatic? Nope. Can I prove by reason alone that the books contained in the bible are inspired? Nope. Faith is meta-rational, and it is required for salvation. In other words, faith is not just a help along the way to theosis. I have faith beyond reason that your God is a fake and that all you believe is worth as much as feces. See how that can be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I'm not suggesting you reasoned yourself into it. I am suggesting, however, that there has to be some reason(s) why you have remained a believer. Even having some semblance of faith being a gift from God is a reasoning, reasoning that God is truth because he has given you the grace to believe. If you didn't have reason to believe that, you wouldn't be clinging to it. No, there don't have to be any reasons in the way you are talking about it. Besides, that would be rationalization, not reason. Can a person who looks at creation see God? I believe that they can, but that knowledge would not be salvific, because it would not be faith. This discussion has brought to my mind what St. Gregory of Nyssa said about faith, for as he explained in one of his commentaries: it is only when "I abandoned all creatures and passed by all that is intelligible in creation; and when I gave up every finite mode of comprehension, then it was that I found my Beloved by faith." Discursive reasoning cannot give a man faith; instead, only God can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I have faith beyond reason that your God is a fake and that all you believe is worth as much as feces. See how that can be a problem? That is sad. I do not have the ability to change your mind, only God can do that. You can't even do that alone, that is, without His grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 No, there don't have to be any reasons in the way you are talking about it. Besides, that would be rationalization, not reason. Can a person who looks at creation see God? I believe that they can, but that knowledge would not be salvific, because it would not be faith. This discussion has brought to my mind what St. Gregory of Nyssa said about faith, for as he explained in one of his commentaries: it is only when "I abandoned all creatures and passed by all that is intelligible in creation; and when I gave up every finite mode of comprehension, then it was that I found my Beloved by faith." Discursive reasoning cannot give a man faith; instead, only God can do that. And this is why people don't respect religion. I will withhold my personal judgement on the matter, but so long as religion claims to have special knowledge from an invisible being that requires no reason, religion will continue to be seen as the antithesis of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 And this is why people don't respect religion. I will withhold my personal judgement on the matter, but so long as religion claims to have special knowledge from an invisible being that requires no reason, religion will continue to be seen as the antithesis of logic. Should I care whether a man "respects religion"? I can't give anyone faith, but I can pray for others to be open to God's call, and I do that all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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