Follow Up

[Fidei Defensor]

My two cents is that there is no god and you shouldn't worry about it. But I'm also not Catholic or Christian.

[Nihil Obstat]

Lumen Gentium (spirit of Vatican II, amirite??):

 

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

[Kevin]

Lumen Gentium (spirit of Vatican II, amirite??):

 

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

 

I've heard somehow who claimed that Lumen Gentium was not an pronounced ex cathedra, and was therefore superceded by various previous statements that would seem to contradict it.

 

But the truth is, I just want to let it go and let this thread die. I regret having made it.

[Nihil Obstat]

I've heard somehow who claimed that Lumen Gentium was not an pronounced ex cathedra, and was therefore superceded by various previous statements that would seem to contradict it.

 

But the truth is, I just want to let it go and let this thread die. I regret having made it.

Well there is certainly room for discussion regarding exactly how authoritative the various aspects of Lumen Gentium are. That much has been made clear. But I figured you would appreciate that passage in particular.

[Kevin]

Yes, I appreciate it, and I thank you, but I just want to let the issue go for right now.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Kevin

[HisChildForever]

Lumen Gentium (spirit of Vatican II, amirite??):

 

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

 

I would also like to add that plenty of non-Catholics don't truly know or understand what the Catholic Church *is* and therefore don't possess the proper means to reject Her. Just as plenty of Catholics who've fallen away don't really *get* what they've fallen away from.

[Kevin]

I would also like to add that plenty of non-Catholics don't truly know or understand what the Catholic Church *is* and therefore don't possess the proper means to reject Her. Just as plenty of Catholics who've fallen away don't really *get* what they've fallen away from.

 

I have read many arguments that basically say that, even among Christians who aren't Catholic, only Baptized children who died before the age of reason or the mentally disables would fall under the qualifiications for invincible ignorance - so pretty much all Protestants are going to Hell. Then there are those who hold that even if their were Protestants who were truly ignorant, they would have to go their whole lives without a single moral sin, and since that's probably not going to happen they are again probably all going to Hell.

I know that you can interpret the Church's statements about ignorance and Baptism of desire pretty broadly, but when you look at the decree of the Papal Bull of Bonifice VIII saying "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" it's hard not to read it as exactly what it says on the tin, that even Christians whose Baptisms the Church recognizes are doomed. I know the Church is trying to move away from this, but the argument that this is a change from tradition seems to have some validity. However, if it is a change, I heartily agree with it - but I still have a hard to reconciling how hard-hearted the Church was in the past with what I see in the person of Christ in the Gospels.



 

Edited March 26, 2013 by Kevin

[Kevin]

My two cents is that there is no god and you shouldn't worry about it. But I'm also not Catholic or Christian.

 

At this point, part of me hopes your right. The Church essentially teaches that everyone, simple because of Original Sin that they don't have any control over, deserves to go the Hell and be tortured, their body lit on fire, forever. Augustine would believed that even the Limbo of unbaptized infants was heresy, and that infants who died in the womb went to Hell. He believed that, for these infants, their would be no memory other than of being tortured, burned alive in a pit of fire from which they were unable to escape - their whole existence would be eternal and endless suffering simply for the crime of being conceived. Augustine believed this and we call him a Father, a founder of the Church and its doctrines.

 

I suppose there is some comfort in the fact that Blessed Jacinta, who was one of the seers of Fatima, said that the Virgin Mary told her most of the souls in hell are there for sins of the flesh - given the fact that there have always been more people who have not heard the gospel or been baptized than Christians who sinned because of lust, I can only interpret this as meaning that Augustine and the rest of the Fathers were wrong on this issue, and that God will save the ignorant and those who misunderstand if they seek him with a sincere heart.