mortify Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 Cardinal Kasper, the former prefect for the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the following: "In its ecumenical approach, Vatican II took a standpoint centered on Christ. This was a new and decisive step. Until then the standpoint was centered on the Church. The accepted view was that ecumenism meant a 'return' to the Catholic Church. The formula was: 'The Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, therefore unity is only possible if the others return to the Roman Catholic Church.' But Vatican II gave up this view." I guess I must be holding on to an antiquated doctrine :) Who does not have the Church as mother does not have God as Father, as the old saying goes! But I'm curious Apo, how do our Eastern brothers view these things? Do they agree its about centering not on the Church but on Christ? Do they invision "unity" the way some contemporary Catholics do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I guess I must be holding on to an antiquated doctrine :) Who does not have the Church as mother does not have God as Father, as the old saying goes! But I'm curious Apo, how do our Eastern brothers view these things? Do they agree its about centering not on the Church but on Christ? Do they invision "unity" the way some contemporary Catholics do? Large numbers of Eastern Catholics (especially hierarchs) would agree with the quotations I have provided. Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox would probably be completely indifferent to the quotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Yes, this is what I was referring to. I'm not sure who the Holy Father was referring to and what he meant by "faith history." If it's to the Orthodox that's one thing but if it's to Protestants and even Jews and Muslims, then I'm totally lost. Also there was mention of not seeking uniformity in theological matters although I thought this was the one area where uniformity was actually sought? Sigh, why is everything so ambiguous these days? :unsure: From the context of the speech I think Pope Benedict is referring to Christians in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 What is meant by "faith history" in that context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 What is meant by "faith history" in that context? It appears to me that the pope - at least based upon the context of his speech - is talking about the history of the separated communities. In other words, Pope Benedict does not see the restoration of communion as a form of absorption of one community by another community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 It appears to me that the pope - at least based upon the context of his speech - is talking about the history of the separated communities. In other words, Pope Benedict does not see the restoration of communion as a form of absorption of one community by another community. Baptist Rite Catholics??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Baptist Rite Catholics??? It's hard to say how this type of unity would be applied. I refuse to speculate! :smile3: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 It's hard to say how this type of unity would be applied. I refuse to speculate! :smile3: Would such a hypothetical thing still be a Mass and why or why not? What would make it or break it as a Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I really do not know what the pope means exactly, and I do not know what limits he would place upon the application of this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 I really do not know what the pope means exactly, and I do not know what limits he would place upon the application of this theory. Yeah, but seriously, what makes a Mass a Mass? I mean there are different liturgies/rites, Tridentine, Latin, whatever, but what in them makes them all Mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Yeah, but seriously, what makes a Mass a Mass? I mean there are different liturgies/rites, Tridentine, Latin, whatever, but what in them makes them all Mass? The basic structure of the liturgy and the Eucharistic anaphora are a part of tradition going back to the earliest centuries. If it does not follow the traditional structure it is not a true liturgy. Another thing to remember is that the liturgy is a part of the tradition that comes to us from Christ through the apostles, and so it is not something we create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 Apo, With the strong emphasis on praxis im surprised the Orthodox would tolerate variety in form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 Apo, With the strong emphasis on praxis im surprised the Orthodox would tolerate variety in form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Apo, With the strong emphasis on praxis im surprised the Orthodox would tolerate variety in form. There are a lot of differences between Byzantine-Greeks and Byzantine-Slavs (e.g., the Greeks use one large prosphora loaf when consecrating the Eucharist, while the Slavs use five smaller loaves), and there are even differences between the various autocephalous Churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anastasia13 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 (edited) Apo, With the strong emphasis on praxis im surprised the Orthodox would tolerate variety in form. You are referring specifically to Eastern Orthodox? There are a lot of differences between Byzantine-Greeks and Byzantine-Slavs (e.g., the Greeks use one large prosphora loaf when consecrating the Eucharist, while the Slavs use five smaller loaves), and there are even differences between the various autocephalous Churches. Byzantine-Greeks and Byzantine-Slavs are not just the Byzantine Catholic Churches? Edited March 22, 2013 by Light and Truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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