What Kind Of Church Is This?

[fides' Jack]

Many here have already expressed my sentiments on the matter.  In trying to bolster their "ministering", they've lost their Catholic identity.  Simple as that.

 

One other thing I've noticed that this reminded me of - if you're the kind of person who likes to feel good at Mass, and sing praise and worship, guitars, etc..., there are all sorts of different options for you to find what meets your particular taste of worship at Mass.  But if you're at the other side of the spectrum, and prefer traditionalist music, reverence, etc..., it seems you either have to compromise, or find an FSSP parish.  I had really hoped Summorum Pontificum was going to change that, but it hasn't - at least not here.  I think we have one OF priest who says Mass in the EF once a month, but from what I understand it's a very private affair, and is far enough away that I couldn't make it with my current schedule.  

 

Maybe this is because so very few fall into my particular mindset about what would be "best".  I don't want to attend a parish that's liberal-leaning and saps any and all religious fervor from me, but I also don't want to be what I have heard called "separatist".  There's no in-between.

 

Anyway, not trying to start a debate - just throwing that out there.

[Roamin Catholic]

Many here have already expressed my sentiments on the matter.  In trying to bolster their "ministering", they've lost their Catholic identity.  Simple as that.

 

One other thing I've noticed that this reminded me of - if you're the kind of person who likes to feel good at Mass, and sing praise and worship, guitars, etc..., there are all sorts of different options for you to find what meets your particular taste of worship at Mass.  But if you're at the other side of the spectrum, and prefer traditionalist music, reverence, etc..., it seems you either have to compromise, or find an FSSP parish.  I had really hoped Summorum Pontificum was going to change that, but it hasn't - at least not here.  I think we have one OF priest who says Mass in the EF once a month, but from what I understand it's a very private affair, and is far enough away that I couldn't make it with my current schedule.  

 

Maybe this is because so very few fall into my particular mindset about what would be "best".  I don't want to attend a parish that's liberal-leaning and saps any and all religious fervor from me, but I also don't want to be what I have heard called "separatist".  There's no in-between.

 

Anyway, not trying to start a debate - just throwing that out there.

 

 

Move out by us. Our parish does the EF at least 3 times a month. (Every other Sunday, and one Saturday morning a week.) They have fairly low attendance so your clan could immediately help. The priest has also been known to do the evening holy day mass in the EF as well. 

[Apotheoun]

One other thing I've noticed that this reminded me of - if you're the kind of person who likes to feel good at Mass, and sing praise and worship, guitars, etc..., there are all sorts of different options for you to find what meets your particular taste of worship at Mass.  But if you're at the other side of the spectrum, and prefer traditionalist music, reverence, etc..., it seems you either have to compromise, or find an FSSP parish.

That does seem to be the approach taken to liturgy at Nativity. The following information about music during the liturgy is taken from the book intended to act as a guide for other parishes in the creation of their new catholic mega-church identity:

 

"Looking at our program today, we have five nearly identical services led by Al and the band he has built and, more recently, a second band led by Rob. Both bands include drummers, keyboards, bassists, and various others as needed from Mass to Mass and week to week (we were surprisd to learn how much musical talent was just sitting in our pews). Typically the bands play current 'praise and worship' music because that's a style of music we've found is attractive and engaging to Tim [1] and his family. And, of all the musical genres we've used, the vibrant and joyful cast and smooth melody of this contemporary style also has the power to get them singing."

 

I guess if you don't really care for praise and worship music you're out of luck at Nativity.

 

[1] Tim appears to be the name the community uses for "unchurched" individuals.

[fides' Jack]

I did notice under the members section that at least one of the secretaries was referring to the priest as Michael - which is inappropriate.

[Kylie Spinelli]

Looked very evangelical until I saw the nun ^_^ Giveaway!

[dominicansoul]

This reminds me of something Matthew Kelly shared in one of his talks.  He mentioned that when he reverted to Catholicism, a friend of his told him, "i'm happy for you, but I was never fed in the Catholic church." 

 

"Never fed?"  Matthew responded.  This friend had been Catholic for 30 years, and she left for evangelical pastures.  Matthew explained that the Catholic church reads almost the total Bible in three year cycles (A,B,C.)  This means she have read the Bible 10 times at Mass during that 30 year stretch!    So, how could she not have been fed with the Good News?  Not to mention, we are the ONLY Christian church that believes we eat the Flesh and Blood of Jesus at every Mass.  How could she not be fed???

 

He concluded by telling her, "It's not that you were not fed during that time as a Catholic.  What you are trying to say is you were not ENTERTAINED." 

 

 

Jesus met with thousands who came to see him wanting to be entertained.  They gathered just to see him perform miracles.  They did not come to hear him preach.  Jesus was no magician.  He came to bring them the Good News of Salvation and to rescue them from their sins.  He wasn't an entertainer, but the Savior of the world... 

 

What the Church needs to emphasize more and more is a personal relationship with Jesus.  When Catholics have that, they will never find Church "boring."   I'm afraid the Church of the Nativity is doing it all wrong.   They can have all the entertaining social clubs/groups/activities they want to, but for goodness sake, keep that silly stuff out of the Holy Mass. 

Edited March 19, 2013 by dominicansoul

[let_go_let_God]

While there are some disturbing aspects to this parish, there is one question I haven't seen asked. What can we learn from this parish to improve upon?

 

From what I've read above there are many concerns with a loss of orthodoxy but look at it from a "marketing" standpoint. This website does have a modern and streamlined design, accessible menus and eye catching design and every part of their website and presentation is well developed. They are using new media sources such as podcasts and live streaming to engage with their parishioners and everything to get people talking about this parish. Word of mouth is still a very powerful means of marketing. Even though we do not agree with how this parish is marketing itself it has still achieved its goal, we are talking about the parish and spreading information about it.

 

Now looking at the parish that I am working with, we are looking at "re-branding" ourselves in order to more effectively communicate with our parishioners and the community as well as have a more recognizable presence at any of our three sites. (We have our main church, the Catholic School and a site at the state college campus) We have an outreach to most of the local county and are the largest parish in the diocese. However, we are not "engaging" with our parishioners outside of Sundays or when we need something (their perception). There are many ideas we can run with from this parish but, we need to weed out the usable from the non.

 

God bless-

LGLG

[BigJon16]

This reminds me of something Matthew Kelly shared in one of his talks.  He mentioned that when he reverted to Catholicism, a friend of his told him, "i'm happy for you, but I was never fed in the Catholic church." 

 

"Never fed?"  Matthew responded.  This friend had been Catholic for 30 years, and she left for evangelical pastures.  Matthew explained that the Catholic church reads almost the total Bible in three year cycles (A,B,C.)  This means she have read the Bible 10 times at Mass during that 30 year stretch!    So, how could she not have been fed with the Good News?  Not to mention, we are the ONLY Christian church that believes we eat the Flesh and Blood of Jesus at every Mass.  How could she not be fed???

 

He concluded by telling her, "It's not that you were not fed during that time as a Catholic.  What you are trying to say is you were not ENTERTAINED." 

 

 

Jesus met with thousands who came to see him wanting to be entertained.  They gathered just to see him perform miracles.  They did not come to hear him preach.  Jesus was no magician.  He came to bring them the Good News of Salvation and to rescue them from their sins.  He wasn't an entertainer, but the Savior of the world... 

 

What the Church needs to emphasize more and more is a personal relationship with Jesus.  When Catholics have that, they will never find Church "boring."   I'm afraid the Church of the Nativity is doing it all wrong.   They can have all the entertaining social clubs/groups/activities they want to, but for goodness sake, keep that silly stuff out of the Holy Mass. 

 

"We do not worship God because it makes us feel good or more connected; 'we worship God because God is to be worshiped,' and doing so arises out of the fundamental human 'desire to know, love, and adore God.'" George Weigel

 

 

 

 

My feelings on this discussion and that church,

 

In his book Letters to a Young Catholic, Weigel dedicates a whole chapter to St. Mary's Church in Greenville, South Carolina. I think that the chapter is worth a read, Brother Adam, to add to this discussion.

 

The chapter is about how a new pastor completely changes the church from a "dingy, slightly run down more-protestant-than-catholic church" into a thriving parish with a firm basis in orthodoxy and all centered on the liturgy, I think that it is interesting to note that this new pastor, Fr. Jay Scott Newman, didn't have to "do church" in the way that the Church of the Nativity does it. Rather he didn't start to "do church" in a new way (I hate that phrase) at all, he started to "Do Catholicism."

 

When the people of St. Mary’s came to church on Sunday morning, July 1, 2001, they noticed that things had changed in the previous twenty-four hours. The tabernacle, which had been banished to the side of the sanctuary in 1984, had been restored to its proper place at the end of the long axis of the church, enthroned on the reredos at the rear of the sanctuary. A large icon of Mary had been hung—the first image of the parish patroness to be visible in the church for twenty years. Burlap banners made by second graders had been removed. The tattered paperback “worship resources” (which is what some confused people call “hymnals”) had been removed from the pews and consigned to the parish dumpster; a music program for that Sunday’s Mass had been made for every congregant. But these changes were merely a harbinger of what was coming next.

 

On June 22, 2003, Corpus Christi Sunday, the parishioners of St. Mary’s, Greenville, packed the church for a Solemn Mass. In a little less than two years, the church and its campus had been transformed. The brick had been repointed and the pews refinished; the stained glass had been cleaned, the interior of the church had been completely repainted, and a glorious new golden tabernacle had been installed. A large carved oaken ambo had been built to complement the restored oaken reredos and provide a fitting place for the proclamation of Scripture and preaching. The baptismal font had been moved to the front door, so that those entering the Church could remind themselves, every week or indeed every day, of who they were and why they were there. The entire parish campus had been relandscaped. Amid an economic down tick, the people of St. Mary’s had cheerfully given $2 million to have all this done, and more.

 

 
many Catholic parishes (as I expect you know) is often a quickie, forty-five minute affair—“Suburban Lite,” as some clerical wags describe it. That’s not what happens in Greenville, and there are no complaints. I don’t think the reason why can be reduced to the splendid music and the exemplary preaching. Rather, the people of St. Mary’s, who are quite ordinary people (as the world judges these things), have come to understand themselves differently. They now know that they are men and women empowered by Christ in baptism to offer true worship to the Father.

 

Just some excerpts from the chapter..

 

 

Do take a gander at this site: http://www.stmarysgvl.org/home/

 

Bro Adam, you should totally take a look at that chapter..

 

 

 

[DiscerningCatholic]

Wat :blink: "The archdiocese recommends that you wait until after your child has received reconciliation to receive his or her first Holy Communion, but that is up to your discretion." O rly? :|

 

 

That may just be a flawed first impression, but this church seems to focus more on entertainment than actual Catholicism...

Edited March 19, 2013 by DiscerningCatholic

[DiscerningCatholic]

I know the meme isn't the perfect one, but oh well

[PhuturePriest]

My issue: They have made the Mass about the community. The Mass is anything but about the community. Making it about the community is what Protestants have done, and it is one of the greatest liturgical abuses of our time (And perhaps all time).

[Maggyie]

I think it's clear this community does really well at some things- they are good at welcoming visitors and getting people involved. They seem to have a big emphasis on getting people to "buy in" and invest in parish life and that's important and great.

 

I wouldn't be attracted as a unchurched person to this parish though. I don't enjoy aggressive friendliness. As Evangetholic said, it's very American, very hipster, it's not beautiful, and rather over-organized. such things make my teeth ache. It's lucky for me there are churches NOT like this or I would not be a Christian. Their website is mostly about their community and not about God and I worry their parish is the same way.

[Socrates]

Interesting discussion.

 

I don't support running parishes on a protestant "mega-church" model, but I think Catholics could definitely be doing more to evangelize and reach out to non-Catholics, as well as fallen-away or lukewarm Catholics.  I don't think there's anything wrong with "marketing" the Catholic message, so long as its kept in mind that the "product" one is selling is Christ and His Truth (rather than gimmicks and accessories), and that neither Catholic truth nor the liturgy are compromised to win "customers."

 

Is anyone familiar with Matthew Kelly (www.dynamiccatholic.com)?  He applies a business and marketing background to his evangelization ministry (aimed largely at bringing fallen-away and lukewarm Catholics back to the faith), but has a very solid, orthodox message, and does not try to change the Church to make it more protestant, but has a strongly focused message for bringing people back into the Church.

 

I'm currently a member of a Traditionalist parish, but sadly (and I think this tends to be true of Trads in general), there seems to be little focus on active evangelization of the outside world.  Unfortunately, this seems to be something many protestants are doing a better job of than Catholics.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Socrates

[Gabriela]

Thank you for your continued input. If any of you get a chance to read "Rebuilt: The Story of a Catholic Parish" I would love to hear more on your impressions on that too.

 

Having read the book I am also concerned about the loss of a Catholic identity and solemn/sacred liturgy. It is not even so much about being "seeker friendly" as it is about the commercialization of Christianity (which the authors of the book claim they are not doing). It is important to be hospitable and open to visitors. When we visited an Eastern Catholic parish about an hour north of us, we were greeted at the door with a friendly "welcome" and then left alone to pray. Afterwards the pastor shook our hand and asked if we would like a tour of the artwork in the church, and if we had any questions. He treated us well and told us he would pray for us. It reminded me how the apostles loved one another. That was amesome - without taking away from the sacredness of the liturgy.

 

I have been in a parish similar to this one in my diocese and it made me immensely uncomfortable as a visitor. I was immediately greeted when I walked in the door and asked if I was a parishioner and if I wanted someone to show me around, there was a "information" booth in a quasi-narthex staffed by parishioners with flat panel tv's with information on programs flashing across all of the screens. I sat in the back and before Mass began they had 5 minutes of "fellowship" where we were supposed to hobnob with our neighbors. That was very bizarre - I am not used to that even in the Protestant mega-parishes I have been to. After that a rock band started up to lead worship and Father did his best to be "hip" and make people laugh. Everyone wanted to hug at the greeting of peace. It was very difficult to enter deeply into prayer. There was very much a sense of the loss that the parish is a sacred place and we have entered into a sacred time.

 

I wonder if this is how the folk Mass / clown Mass / guitar&tambourine Mass folks felt when they made changes to the liturgy back in the day. That they were reaching seekers and building up their churches for the Catholic faith.

 

Now the other thing is, Cardinal Dolan gave a strong endorsement and wrote the forward to the book which surprised me & it is published by Ave Maria - another surprise. I do agree with many of their assessments and changes regarding faith formation, stewardship, preaching, and other areas, but creating a Protestant-Catholic hybrid mega-parish is an error that will have consequences in the future. I'm still considering a lot of what they are doing and hope to do a book study with parish leaders here soon.

 

I'm just curious: Hypothetically speaking, if all Catholic parishes became like this one, would you all support my joining a sedevacantist parish? How about the SSPX?

[Gabriela]

I don't think there's anything wrong with "marketing" the Catholic message, so long as its kept in mind that the "product" one is selling is Christ and His Truth (rather than gimmicks and accessories), and that neither Catholic truth nor the liturgy are compromised to win "customers."

 

Is anyone familiar with Matthew Kelly (www.dynamiccatholic.com)?  He applies a business and marketing background to his evangelization ministry (aimed largely at bringing fallen-away and lukewarm Catholics back to the faith), but has a very solid, orthodox message, and does not try to change the Church to make it more protestant, but has a strongly focused message for bringing people back into the Church.

 

While I think this *sounds* good in theory, in practice it distorts people's relationship with God long-term. If we "translate" the Christian message into consumerist terms—even if we keep the message in tact—people begin to relate to the Church, God, religion, etc. with consumerist attitudes. Capitalism is inherently goal-driven. Religion is relationship-driven. You can do both well, but it's rare, and typically one takes priority and dominates the other.

 

One thing I love about Catholicism is that, to me, it seems inherently anti-mass culture (a la the Frankfurt School). It is all about the individual's one-on-one relationship with God. Yes, we have relationships to one another, and to the Church as unified body, but we have those relationships by virtue of our one-on-one relationship with the Son. There is no equivalent for this in mass culture. Even with the advent of social media, the relationship between individuals and organizations is still very much "magic bullet"-like: The org disseminates messages/regulations/products, and the individual passively receives/obeys/consumes. It is very impersonal.

 

If people have been drawn to the Christian message by means of capitalist/consumerist/market tactics, they will respond in capitalist/consumerist/market ways—not consciously, but out of long-ingrained, unconscious, automatic habit. In Americans, these responses have reached near-instinct depth. I see it in my students every day. The consumerist disposition has so pervaded every corner of society that people no longer know how to behave in any non-consumerist relationship. They are constantly weighing the costs and benefits to themselves of every single thing they do, including relationships. For this reason, I think it is of the utmost importance that the Church jealously guard against the dissemination of Her message by such means. They deliver a spiritual message in a very confusing materialist package.