What Kind Of Church Is This?

[OnlySunshine]

How would you respond to this way of doing "church" (I hate that phraseology, but it is what they use) ? I have ideas based on my time as a Baptist and the long term effect of this type of "seeker friendly" atmosphere. Is this what the Catholic Church intends for its liturgy and worship? For evangelization? Is this what Christ intends? Do they have any ideas that work, compared to those that may not be appropriate? Such as emphasis on tithing 10%, small group catechesis, faith formation for children and youth? Having a coffee house in church?

 

I don't think it's appropriate.  I am all for fellowship -- we have it in my parish (it's called "coffee and donuts in the parish hall after Mass") and we have other ministries such as CRHP.  But this whole reform based on the idea of a megachurch and changing to please doesn't work in the long run.  There is a young man in my young adult group who left the Catholic Church for a megachurch and then came back because, even though the services were inclusive and got him involved, he realized that there was more to Sunday worship than music and "feel-good" services.  Sometimes you need a swift kick in the hind end from homilies and he missed that.  Megachurch ministers hardly mention God by name -- they skirt the issue (at least the ones I've attended several years ago).  My sister's minister talks more about himself and what he learned than the Gospel.  It's sad, really.  :(
 

[Kateri89]

 

St. Therese is unimpressed.

[Papist]

But, everyone is laughing and smiling. Guitars and drums is all I needed to see.

 

 

 

 

[Papist]

What you can expect at Church of the Nativity is a reliably relaxed, casual environment where you and your family will feel welcomed and at home. Our friendly volunteer ministers will help you find your way around, starting in the parking lot. You’ll experience great music and a relevant message that isn’t about religion or rules but about you and God.  Most every weekend we also have programs for kids and students too, everyone from 6 months to grade 12. Your kids will experience an engaging, fun and safe environment they’ll love.

I find this problematic. I hear this all the time living in the south. 

 

No where on this site do I see authentic Catholic activities. Such as Liturgy, Benediction, Penance,Rosary group, etc. During Lent, I would expect to see the Stations somewhere. I got a sense that they are trying to lure to ex-Catholics and/or dormant Catholics, and feel they have to tone down being Catholic. 

 

[Ice_nine]

This is gross.

[Brother Adam]

This is gross.

 

Why is it gross? (Or for others, why is it good?) Be very specific - like I said, there are a lot of good people working in very weak parishes that they want to evangelize that see this as the solution. My hope is to have a larger discussion about what these guys are doing with parish priests and lay leaders. I want to gather as many thoughts and ideas as I can.

[Apotheoun]

What I am concerned about is the idea that for the Catholic Church to grow it must become more or less a Protestant mega-community. Most of the changes that I have been able to discern from their website, and I admit that it is hard to tell what there liturgy really is like, seem to involve making the Catholic Church look a lot like the "churches" I left more than twenty years ago (i.e., when I was a Protestant). Can the Catholic Church attract people while remaining true to its own history and tradition, or does it need to turn itself into an evangelical or mainline Protestant "church"?

[Kateri89]

Why is it gross? (Or for others, why is it good?) Be very specific - like I said, there are a lot of good people working in very weak parishes that they want to evangelize that see this as the solution. My hope is to have a larger discussion about what these guys are doing with parish priests and lay leaders. I want to gather as many thoughts and ideas as I can.

 

Well at the risk of sounding "snobbish", I think this is the type of watered-down, hippie Catholicism that got us into the mess we're in today.  There's nothing wrong with fellowship, etc. but Catholicism is a religion that respects ancient tradition, from the days of worship in the catacombs to the present.  The beauty of our Church is our recognition of and respect for the truth and the great men and women who have suffered to preach it.  The Mass is a holy sacrifice, not a "wave your hands in the air" rally.

 

I agree with others who have said it's probably not all bad.  I don't doubt that there are well-intentioned people in this church nor that our churches could do more to promote fellowship and welcome but it gives off a bad vibe.  Just my thoughts.

[TheresaThoma]

At first glance I thought like many others, mega-church. For me I guess I would have to go and experience what their parish to make a call. Are there areas that we could probably take a few cues on, sure. But not at the cost of losing our Catholic identity.

[Nihil Obstat]

I cannot imagine St. Pio of Pietrelcina ever agreeing to say Mass there. :|

I can, however, imagine him having some very choice words about their so-called 'style of worship'.

[Evangetholic]

It doesn't seem like our Lady would be welcome either. (Not to mention the poor, monarchists, singles, minorities, the depressed, etc.)  Reminds me of Protestantism. Seems very American.

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for your continued input. If any of you get a chance to read "Rebuilt: The Story of a Catholic Parish" I would love to hear more on your impressions on that too.

 

Having read the book I am also concerned about the loss of a Catholic identity and solemn/sacred liturgy. It is not even so much about being "seeker friendly" as it is about the commercialization of Christianity (which the authors of the book claim they are not doing). It is important to be hospitable and open to visitors. When we visited an Eastern Catholic parish about an hour north of us, we were greeted at the door with a friendly "welcome" and then left alone to pray. Afterwards the pastor shook our hand and asked if we would like a tour of the artwork in the church, and if we had any questions. He treated us well and told us he would pray for us. It reminded me how the apostles loved one another. That was awesome - without taking away from the sacredness of the liturgy.

 

I have been in a parish similar to this one in my diocese and it made me immensely uncomfortable as a visitor. I was immediately greeted when I walked in the door and asked if I was a parishioner and if I wanted someone to show me around, there was a "information" booth in a quasi-narthex staffed by parishioners with flat panel tv's with information on programs flashing across all of the screens. I sat in the back and before Mass began they had 5 minutes of "fellowship" where we were supposed to hobnob with our neighbors. That was very bizarre - I am not used to that even in the Protestant mega-parishes I have been to. After that a rock band started up to lead worship and Father did his best to be "hip" and make people laugh. Everyone wanted to hug at the greeting of peace. It was very difficult to enter deeply into prayer. There was very much a sense of the loss that the parish is a sacred place and we have entered into a sacred time.

 

I wonder if this is how the folk Mass / clown Mass / guitar&tambourine Mass folks felt when they made changes to the liturgy back in the day. That they were reaching seekers and building up their churches for the Catholic faith.

 

Now the other thing is, Cardinal Dolan gave a strong endorsement and wrote the forward to the book which surprised me & it is published by Ave Maria - another surprise. I do agree with many of their assessments and changes regarding faith formation, stewardship, preaching, and other areas, but creating a Protestant-Catholic hybrid mega-parish is an error that will have consequences in the future. I'm still considering a lot of what they are doing and hope to do a book study with parish leaders here soon.

[Ice_nine]

I'm not a protestant, although I identified as a "born-again" for a fraction of my  young life, and there's a reason I left that behind.

 

I have nothing against protestants/evangelicals really, I know and love many of them. They can have their own churches and worship services but I don't understand why Catholic churches are allowing a heretical tradition to influence them so much. Take a damn stand and stop changing with every fleeting fashion. This brand of church-building is glitzy and sterile imo.

 

I like dancing and holding hands and singing and all that fun stuff but, for that one hour out of the week I don't want/need that. Maybe the church would have more of a positive output if it did have these cultural "fellowship" events or whatever but kept the liturgy a separate affair? just an idea. The liturgy does not need to be absorbed into the culture in order to remain "relevant."

 

 

[LouisvilleFan]

Please look at this website and answer the poll:

 

http://churchnativity.tv/

 

I am reading a book based on the measured success or failure of this parish. It is considered by some as the next big "hit" in how to do "church" to make it relevant to peoples lives and be seeker friendly. I am not suggesting whether or not this is a good direction for Catholic parishes or not, I am just curious peoples impression of the Church based on their use of social media alone.

 

Finally, what is the church trying to say about themselves, and what are they trying to say to visitors of the website?

 

What's the book?

 

The website doesn't look bad, but it doesn't look that good either... the colors clash too much, and if it doesn't work without Flash that's really bad. I voted "difficult... Catholic" since it wasn't immediately obvious, but anyone who's familiar with emerging church web design knows the creed is found under "statement of belief" or something similarly worded :)

 

Calling it the next big hit is kinda like Samsung having the next big thing... this style of outreach may be new in the world of Catholic ministry, but it's old hat for Evangelicals. Of course, Evangelicals integrate social media, excellent web design, and all the "real world" stuff like helping new people feel welcome, themes that draw you into the Scriptures and teaching, creative arts, etc. because it works. Thus, Catholics should do it too.

 

Church of the Nativity needs to dial back the "cool" factor just a bit... I imagine some visitors get the impression they're trying too hard. Girls don't like it when guys do that. Same goes for spiritual courtship (Joshua Harris anathemized the d-word).

 

But bottom line is this parish cares about their community and wants people in their church who otherwise wouldn't be there. Anyone who can visit their site can jump into one of their studies. Most parish websites are lucky to give you more than the mass times and parish bulletins feature more ads than pastoral teaching. So, yes, what they're doing is pretty awesome, even with a few shortcomings.

[LouisvilleFan]

I have been in a parish similar to this one in my diocese and it made me immensely uncomfortable as a visitor. I was immediately greeted when I walked in the door and asked if I was a parishioner and if I wanted someone to show me around, there was a "information" booth in a quasi-narthex staffed by parishioners with flat panel tv's with information on programs flashing across all of the screens. I sat in the back and before Mass began they had 5 minutes of "fellowship" where we were supposed to hobnob with our neighbors. That was very bizarre - I am not used to that even in the Protestant mega-parishes I have been to. After that a rock band started up to lead worship and Father did his best to be "hip" and make people laugh. Everyone wanted to hug at the greeting of peace. It was very difficult to enter deeply into prayer. There was very much a sense of the loss that the parish is a sacred place and we have entered into a sacred time.

 

That sounds about like how Catholic parishes do Protestant-style ministry... people aren't attracted to something that feels fake (although the Catholic teen/young adult crowd may attend there because it's fun, giving them the false impression that it's working). Besides, the mega-church movement is past its prime now. The Emerging Church movement tends toward smaller gatherings on multiple campuses in order to be more personal in ministry (ironically, the Catholic Church is the ultimate model of this). They can also be much more liturgical and seek to integrate beauty into worship, as it was sorely lacking in the mega-churches that preceded them (again, things Catholicism has done for a couple of millenia). I use to attend a Southern Baptist church that celebrated weekly Communion, prayed responsorial Psalms, sang traditional hymns along with contemporary songs (artfully, so it wasn't cheesy) and thousands of young adults were perfectly content to hear challenging 30-45 minute sermons (i.e. not a bunch of Joel Osteen fluff).

 

I think the mistake parishes like the one you visited are making is they take all the "stuff" they see working at Mars Hill, pick it up, and plop it down at St. Mary's.

 

In the words of Sanka, "if we walk Jamaican, talk Jamaican, and is Jamaican, then we sure as hell better bobsled Jamaican." We don't learn from our Protestant brothers with poor plagarizing. We learn from them by finding a style that's genuinely Catholic and relevant to the culture we are commanded to baptize. It's easier for a church that has few liturgical rules, which means we have to be more creative.

 

Imagine, for instance, a parish that combined the welcoming atmosphere, challenging preaching, and small groups with a simple and elegant Mass (with Latin propers and a little incense), a creative music ministry that works in all those excellent hymns we never sing, preaching that hits home to the practical challenges of living the Gospel every day (you need 30 minutes a week to do that), and silence during the Eucharist.

 

That, to me, would be in the ballpark of an ideal parish. Of course, what I want is one of those little selfish things that I must sacrifice at every Mass.