Pope Francis (can We Have A Sensible Discussion?)

[BG45]

It should be borne in mind that although Pope Vigilius did not end up supporting the Monophysite heretics as Empress Theodora desired, he did have Nestorian leanings, which is practically speaking the opposite heresy of the one endorsed by Theodora. Not only that, he also initially rejected the canons of the Fifth Ecumenical Council because they condemned certain Nestorian texts and authors, but was later - reluctantly - forced to accept the canons and under pressure finally condemned the Three Chapters, and several other theological texts that promoted the Nestorian error. Of course today the Fifth Ecumenical Council is docilely accepted in all the Catholic Churches, both of the West and the East.

 

Good point, sorry that I forgot to include his Nestorian leanings in there.  Appreciate the expansion of how his views continued to change, grudgingly or not, as his papacy progressed. :)
 

[MissScripture]

It's still an important fact. Pope Saint Pius V didn't start the tradition, it grew slowly over time. Traditions grows slowly through out time, and should not be suddenly lost. I don't believe anyone is behaving in the manner you accuse.

But all these traditions started somewhere with someone. 500 years from now, Catholics could well be freaking out in the same way they are now because a tradition started by Pope Francis is being changed. While there is importance in traditions, they are not the be-all-end-all the way some people are acting as if they are. He is not changing any Traditions. If people want to get their pantries in a bind because the Pope is not acting the way they would prefer, they can go ahead and do that, but to act like the faith is going to be destroyed because the Pope has chosen not to wear red shoes is a bit drama-queen-ish.

[Apotheoun]

Tradition is all, because even scripture is a part of Tradition.

[franciscanheart]

Tradition vs tradition.

[Nihil Obstat]

Tradition is all, because even scripture is a part of Tradition.

I have a feeling that John the Apostle, Polycarp, and Irenaeus would all agree with this statement. :)

[Lilllabettt]

fiddler on the roof

[Apotheoun]

Tradition vs tradition.

But that only follows if you accept that faulty and modern Western distinction, and I don't subscribe to it. What you call little "t" traditions I call the Apostolic paradosis and kerygma. For example: Is praying facing East a dispensable tradition according to the Church Fathers? Modern Westerners seem to think it is, but if you read the Fathers you will see that they hold is is a tradition coming to us from the Apostles. Heck, that is why the Church traditionally has buried Christians with their feet facing East, so when they were resurrected, they would be facing the Lord.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

But all these traditions started somewhere with someone. 500 years from now, Catholics could well be freaking out in the same way they are now because a tradition started by Pope Francis is being changed. While there is importance in traditions, they are not the be-all-end-all the way some people are acting as if they are. He is not changing any Traditions. If people want to get their pantries in a bind because the Pope is not acting the way they would prefer, they can go ahead and do that, but to act like the faith is going to be destroyed because the Pope has chosen not to wear red shoes is a bit drama-queen-ish.

 

I think the reason we are seeing such concerns is because for the last 50 years Catholic Tradition and traditions have been thrown to the curb for the most part as outdated and too flashy. Then Benedict rises to the Papacy and against great opposition, reminds us all the big things even the 'little things' in the Church's traditions are very important. Now we have Pope Francis not adopting some of those traditions. Yes, some peoples reaction has been panic, and despair. But some truly wish to have a sensible discussion about their concerns (concerns that may be based on legitimate reasons). I think we should be careful with hyperbolic labeling of those that have concerns, and hear these souls out. It really isn't going to help anyone to label them and accuse them of this or that. That type of thing will only help to push that person away.

[Apotheoun]

I have thought for some time now about re-posting comments made by Eastern Orthodox Christians at various fora and other sites I visit, because their comments might help to reveal to my Roman Catholic co-religionists just how their Church is perceived by the members of the other ancient Apostolic Churches. Phatmass is such an insular place.

[Winchester]

That would be true if signs were held to be empty tokens, but that idea is Protestant and not Catholic.

 

Yes, that's the only possible option. Either one accepts that red shoes are inherently holy and must never be abandoned once taken on, or one regards the symoblism (symbols not having inherent meaning, thus being symbols in the first place), or one regards them as empty tokens.

[Apotheoun]

Yes, that's the only possible option. Either one accepts that red shoes are inherently holy and must never be abandoned once taken on, or one regards the symoblism (symbols not having inherent meaning, thus being symbols in the first place), or one regards them as empty tokens.

The red shoes, according to Catholic tradition, manifest (i.e., make present) the authority of the office of the pope, they signify that authority - along with the other vestments he wears - and the idea that they are simply empty or can be dumped because the current office holder isn't personally interested in them is detrimental to tradition. You may not a agree, but at least the position I am advocating is historically Catholic (and Orthodox for that matter).

[BG45]

fiddler on the roof

 

One of the best musicals ever!

[MissScripture]

So, why is it okay years later that some traditions have been altered (or created), but its not okay for them to be altered now? How can traditions develop if there is no room for things to be changed in the slightest? Why were the people who introduced these traditions okay to do that, but Pope Francis is not okay to do things slightly different from his predecessors?

[MissScripture]

One of the best musicals ever!

But The Sound of Music is better.

[Apotheoun]

All this talk about tradition has made me think again about an article I saw in NCR that was written by a priest in the diocese of Oakland (CA) where he lamented how the Roman Catholic "traditionalists" were playing dress up because bishops and priests were celebrating the older Roman Rite wearing "costumes" from fifty years ago (i.e., the pre-Vatican II era). All I could think about was how this priest would be shunned in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches, because in the Churches of the East (especially the Orthodox ones) bishops and priests continue to wear the same style of vestments that they have worn for uncounted centuries. Tradition is about handing on what you have received unchanged. Once that is lost it cannot be easily retrieved, and the holistic nature of the Orthodox Catholic faith is corrupted.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Apotheoun