Pope Francis (can We Have A Sensible Discussion?)

[Lil Red]

Papal traditions don't appear to matter to him, so I can't imagine why Fransiscan traditions should.

 

key words: "don't appear". your post makes me very sad.

[Lilllabettt]

I agree that "flashy" humility can be off-putting. I think that is a pit that Franciscans in particular risk falling into. Look how poor I am, how my habit is patched, how I wear only sandals and never shave my beard etc. etc.  the Franciscan take on poverty is unique in its emphasis on poverty ... where Dominicans for example would see poverty as a means to an end (effective preaching) Franciscans see it as an end itself. Which unless care is taken has the potential to turn poverty into an idol.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Lilllabettt

[Apotheoun]

key words: "don't appear". your post makes me very sad.

I do not think you should be sad, because Noel is simply expressing her concerns, and if anything you should be thankful that she feels she can do that with her fellow Catholics in a safe environment at this forum.

 

I continue to pray for the new pope, because the Church has many problems - and not just liturgical difficulties - that need to be addressed.

[Noel's angel]

It's interesting to see that some people are doing with my posts what they have said I am doing to the Pope: picking out all the negatives. 

 

I've said positive things about him, too!

 

Fr Z. has a new blog post that I am digesting now. I'm normally not a big fan of his, but this post is very interesting. Here's the link:

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/03/i-am-thinking-about-those-red-shoes/

[Lil Red]

I didn't know much of him as archbishop, so it's difficult to say. I just think that there is too much of a contrast, too much of an emphasis on shunning certain things. I appreciate that he is not a clone of Benedict but so far what I've seen could be described as a 'papacy of personality'. Maybe he world needs him to be this way. I for one, am impressed by his style of speech and his ability to speak 'off-the-cuff'. I think it will endear people to him. 

 

he's been pope a week and you're already saying that his papacy is one of personality?  :blink: seriously?

[Aloysius]

I only read this far.  What does the second half of that sentence have to do with this conversation? Methinks someone is injecting their own personal obsession into a conversation on a different topic. 

 

 

And I forget who said it, but the Holy Spirit doesn't choose the Pope.  Alexander VI Borgia, etc.  We've had bad Popes.  NOT saying Pope Francis is a bad Pope, just that we aren't guaranteed a good one.  I don't know where this quote is from, but one of my theology professors before the conclave said some thing along the lines of "Pray we don't get the pope that we deserve." (His actual statement was INCREDIBLY profound, I just can't remember it.  It was more than that, I just can't remember the rest).

 

Ah yeah, I think I heard that profound quote too... I think it went something like "Pray that we don't get the pope that we deserve, but the one Gotham needs right now" :cyclops:

[franciscanheart]

Depends on the sign. Catholic/Papal Tradition and tradition should be honored per the Fourth Commandment.

Another thing about the fourth commandment, from the CCC:
2248 According to the fourth commandment, God has willed that, after him, we should honor our parents and those whom he has vested with authority for our good.

[Lil Red]

The purpose of a sign is to direct. It's okay if signs change to suit the directed.

 

props.

[Noel's angel]

he's been pope a week and you're already saying that his papacy is one of personality?  :blink: seriously?

 

"So far what I've seen could be described as..." is a lot different than "This is..."

[Apotheoun]

So, in essence, you're saying the Roman Church is wimpy and is throwing away traditions or lessening them in the name of making them easier? That's offensive and really, really wrong. Not eating all day is extremely unhealthy. Some people passed out or died from it sometimes. Public confession stopped people from going to confession, because, I'm sorry to say, people are judgmental, and would judge the penitent or they would spread the word around about what you did. Having public confessions in a Monastic community is way different than having a public confession in a parish.

I wouldn't put in those words, but many of my friends would. Tradition (paradosis) ceases if you stop passing it on.

[Lil Red]

"So far what I've seen could be described as..." is a lot different than "This is..."

 

you're judging his papacy in its infancy stages. (some might say it's newborn stages.) why? why not wait and see?

[franciscanheart]

I agree that "flashy" humility can be off-putting. I think that is a pit that Franciscans in particular risk falling into. Look how poor I am, how my habit is patched, how I wear only sandals and never shave my beard etc. etc.  the Franciscan take on poverty is unique in its emphasis on poverty ... where Dominicans for example would see poverty as a means to an end (effective preaching) Franciscans see it as an end itself. Which unless care is taken has the potential to turn poverty into an idol.

So then your issue is really with Franciscans? :hehe:

It seems like a twisted sense of pride which would suspect false humility in another when in reality a great humility is being lived in the life of many Franciscans - professed and non-professed alike - throughout the world.

[Noel's angel]

you're judging his papacy in its infancy stages. (some might say it's newborn stages.) why? why not wait and see?

 

I'm giving my initial impressions. As I said at the start, this thread is a place to share hopes and fears. It isn't a declaration that from this point forward I will dislike everything Pope Francis does. 

[Apotheoun]

you're judging his papacy in its infancy stages. (some might say it's newborn stages.) why? why not wait and see?

I don't think Noel is saying that she has made a final and irrevocable judgment on Pope Francis' pontificate. Heck, no one can do that until he either resigns or dies. She is just looking at his initial actions and expressing some concern. I think it is better that she do that with Catholic friends here at phatmass (and in her real world life) than just hold all the concerns inside unexpressed so that they can fester.

[KnightofChrist]

Another thing about the fourth commandment, from the CCC:
2248 According to the fourth commandment, God has willed that, after him, we should honor our parents and those whom he has vested with authority for our good.

 

I agree, this also applies to Pontiffs in regard to their predecessors. It presents difficulties when a Pope forgoes a traditional practice, held as a act of humility, that all, most, or many of his predecessors. It could cause confusion, some could take it as the other Pope by holding the traditional practice weren't so humble.

Edited March 18, 2013 by KnightofChrist