Pope Francis (can We Have A Sensible Discussion?)

[PhuturePriest]

Look, I am not a Roman Catholic, but I can sympathize with the traditionally minded Roman Catholics, because the pope's ring is a unique sign of his office, and it is destroyed upon his death. Tradition will die if people simply change everything.

 

I'm a traditional Catholic. I'm a Latin Mass, Rosary in Latin, Douay-Rheims reading Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm going to flip out in despair and agony because the Pope has a silver ring and not a gold one.

[KnightofChrist]

You are taking great offenses at nothing. It's a ring. Do you think Saint Peter had a ring, a funny hat, and a cape? He didn't. Was he a heretical Pope because he didn't follow man-made traditions?

 

1) No one has made a charge of heresy.

 

2) Catholic traditional symbolism matters a great deal, Papal symbolism means a great deal as well, his ring is not just a ring, his 'hat' is not just a hat, his cape is not just a cape. Protestantism cheapens Catholic symbolism to meaning nothing, to just being this or that, or being anti-humble or vanity.
 

[Noel's angel]

You are taking great offenses at nothing. It's a ring. Do you think Saint Peter had a ring, a funny hat, and a cape? He didn't. Was he a heretical Pope because he didn't follow man-made traditions?

 

Did I say Francis is a heretic? You're adding things to my posts that aren't there. All I'm saying is that he appears to be making up his own rules. He seems to be very headstrong and certain of what he wants. There (in my eyes) seems to be a bit of a contradiction between his headstrong approach to certain things and his humility in approaching others.

[Noel's angel]

I'm a traditional Catholic. I'm a Latin Mass, Rosary in Latin, Douay-Rheims reading Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm going to flip out in despair and agony because the Pope has a silver ring and not a gold one.

 

Show me where I flipped out in despair and agony, please.

[PhuturePriest]

Show me where I flipped out in despair and agony, please.

 

There is this thing we use here on Phatmass. It is called "sarcasm". Some are incapable of understanding it, but generally, when someone says "heresy" or uses such language as "flipped out in despair and agony" they are being overly-dramatic in order to make fun of a ridiculous conversation.

[franciscanheart]

Papal traditions don't appear to matter to him, so I can't imagine why Fransiscan traditions should.

Maybe he's not following a Franciscan tradition. It seems that was just an assumption by another phatmass poster, not a reason from the Pontiff himself. I can't understand your harsh criticisms of his decisions, as if you'd make a better Pope. As if his choice of a gold-plated ring instead of a solid gold ring is SO SCANDALOUS and SO WRONG.

It just seems... unnecessarily negative.

[Apotheoun]

I'm a traditional Catholic. I'm a Latin Mass, Rosary in Latin, Douay-Rheims reading Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm going to flip out in despair and agony because the Pope has a silver ring and not a gold one.

I had an Orthodox friend of mine recently ask me, "Why doesn't your pope just wear regular street clothes instead of white robes?" And I really couldn't answer his question, because you know what, if the pope can just arbitrarily drop all sorts of traditions, why not that one too? Tradition is the passing on of what has been received, and Tradition no longer exists the moment you begin to alter things. As an Orthodox priest pointed out in an apologetic text I read yesterday:

 

Roman Catholic statement: "The absence of a pope from Eastern Orthodoxy clearly had negative effects."

 

Orthodox Response: "Yes, the Orthodox communion now has a weak primate, in part as an unavoidable over-reaction to the excesses of the Papal system. However, there are also negative effects to having one head which 'no one can judge' (Roman Catholic Canon Law) and who can change the Liturgy with a single signature..."

 

Eastern Orthodox Christians will never accept this idea, because it ultimately destroys Tradition.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

the offertory procession can be omitted for good reason. same with the sign of peace. I have seen it done often and in very formal, traditional environments too. the cardinals have each individually already pledged their loyalty to the pope - this go round is for the public to see. The chief celebrant does not have to distribute communion, etc. and it has often been the case when the Pope is celebrating.

 

People are reading into things, more than what is there.

[franciscanheart]

You are taking great offenses at nothing. It's a ring. Do you think Saint Peter had a ring, a funny hat, and a cape? He didn't. Was he a heretical Pope because he didn't follow man-made traditions?

You make excellent points. (But St Peter couldn't follow traditions that hadn't been made. But I SEE YOUR POINT. AND I SUPPORT IT.) ;)

[Noel's angel]

There is this thing we use here on Phatmass. It is called "sarcasm". Some are incapable of understanding it, but generally, when someone says "heresy" or uses such language as "flipped out in despair and agony" they are being overly-dramatic in order to make fun of a ridiculous conversation.

 

If it's ridiculous, don't partake in it. Sarcasm and melo-drama are two different things. The former doesn't translate well via text.

[PhuturePriest]

I had an Orthodox friend of mine recently ask me, "Why doesn't your pope just wear regular street clothes instead of white robes?" And I really couldn't answer his question, because you know what, if the pope can just arbitrarily drop all sorts of traditions, why not that one too? Tradition is the passing on of what has been received, and Tradition no longer exists the moment you begin to alter things. As an Orthodox priest pointed out in an apologetic text I read yesterday:

 

Roman Catholic statement: "The absence of a pope from Eastern Orthodoxy clearly had negative effects."

 

Orthodox Response: "Yes, the Orthodox communion now has a weak primate, in part as an unavoidable over-reaction to the excesses of the Papal system. However, there are also negative effects to having one head which 'no one can judge' (Roman Catholic Canon Law) and who can change the Liturgy with a single signature..."

 

Eastern Orthodox Christians will never accept this idea, because it ultimately destroys Tradition.

 

Wearing street clothes is way different. That's taking away his clear identity as the Pope. A ring is not a clear identity of who he is, Bishops wear the same hat he does, and I honestly never even noticed the Pope wear a cape.

Edited March 18, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Apotheoun]

You make excellent points. (But St Peter couldn't follow traditions that hadn't been made. But I SEE YOUR POINT. AND I SUPPORT IT.) ;)

He makes the same kinds of points Martin Luther made.  :shocking:

 

Why not just dump all the papal traditions and signs of authority? Why only get rid of some of them or alter some to make them more modern? Just dump them all and be done with it.

[franciscanheart]

The bottom line, NA, is that when you look for reasons to discredit the Pope, the faithful at phatmass are not likely to support and/or agree with you. It's their right to not agree and to engage you in discussion on a public message board.

Further, I would expect that if you really wanted a healthy discussion about the implications of the Pope's recent actions, you would not post one- or two-line posts citing things he's done contrary to tradition, but explain why you have an issue with it and what significance you think this has in regards to the universal Church.

I may not agree with Apotheoun, but at least he's providing logical, respectful, significant reasons for his disagreements.

[Apotheoun]

Wearing street clothes is way different. That's taking away his clear identity as the Pope. A ring is not a clear identity of who he is, Bishops wear the same hat he does, and I honestly never even noticed the Pope wear a cape.

Actually wearing the ring would be more important than wearing the clothes, because like with the sacrament of marriage, a woman rarely wears her wedding dress again.

 

But why not dump all the papal traditions? Why only some of them?

Edited March 18, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

well the ring is actually a very important part of the clear identity thing. His ring will be destroyed when his reign is over. It makes no difference whether it is silver or gold, but it is important that it is uniquely his. It is traditional for Franciscans to use silver.

 

Actually I am kind of amused at upset over the offertory being omitted because that is when a lot of the fru-fru stuff can happen in a bad liturgy. Dancing nuns bringing up incense, etc.  The EF does not have an offertory procession.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2013 by Lilllabettt