Pope Francis (can We Have A Sensible Discussion?)

[Noel's angel]

NOTE: My first (gut) reaction to Pope Francis was negative. But since then, I have found myself increasingly having to defend him to other Catholics, many of whom are claiming he is a heretic etc. I am open to having my mind changed, and maybe in time I will grow to love him; all I know is that I shall continue to pray for him. Can we now have a discussion that stays away from hysteria on both sides? (i.e. "I love him sooooooo much; he's like a saint," vs, "the Pope is no longer Catholic and I hate him.")

 

Aloysius wrote the following on another thread: "ultimately I like his personal humility, but I hope that he recognizes that the proper expression of personal humility while sitting on the throne of St. Peter is to show oneself as a man standing humbly overshadowed by the apostolic office, not to lower the apostolic office itself but to lower your individual self within it.  To entirely abolish all pomp and circumstance around the papacy is to rob the people of the symbolic art that has been forged by the Church to express our anticipation of the Glory of the Kingdom of God."

 

We have seen him shun the red shoes traditionally worn by the Pope. When the red cape was offered to him, he declined, saying, "You wear it; the carnival is over." At the press gathering, when the time came for the Apostolic blessing, he said it silently, made no sign of the cross, nothing. Fair enough, many gathered there weren't Catholic, but could this be a sign that he's a little too eager to please non-Catholics?

 

Could it be that Francis is putting his own personal stamp on the Papal office a little bit too much? Would it not be a greater sign of humility to take the red shoes rather than do his own thing and ignore tradition? 

 

Certain things he has done give me great hope (his first homily as Pope, for example); other things make me very wary. 

 

Thoughts?

[homeschoolmom]

What is the significance of the red cape and shoes, other than tradition?

[Noel's angel]

I'm not sure. Perhaps someone could enlighten me. It may not seem important, but wearing them wouldn't indicate he was taking part in a carnival, or is in some way less 'humble'. It seems like he's making a bigger deal out of things than necessary. These are just my initial thoughts.

[mortify]

Noel, well I appreciate you attempting a sensible discussion on this matter although it will be very difficult! You're walking on the edge of a blade by raising such a topic, and it will be very easy to cross over into an area that a few may regard as offensive. But that said, I think such discussions are necessary and helpful, we need to address issues and not pretend they don't exist.

 

My concerns are the same as yours; the points you mention suggest to me a negative attitude towards our tradition. Unfotunately though, I'll have to leave it at that. I'll be watching on the sidelines this time :cold:

[Nihil Obstat]

I have not yet seen a reliable source for the carnival quote. Troubling if true though.

[Lil Red]

they're just shoes.

[Noel's angel]

I really don't want to start any arguments. As I said, I'd be delighted to come to love Pope Francis, and there are things he has said and done so far that give me great hope, but I do have my fears.

 

I think we all have it in us to express our hopes and fears in an adult, respectful manner.

[mortify]

they're just shoes.

 

:pinch:

[Era Might]

I disagree with the dualism between the person and the office. The office is there for a personal witness...if the office is standing in the way of that witness, the witness to Christ, then the man in the office should do what he has to do to live an authentic witness.

[Lil Red]

I thought this was a really great blog posting.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/barefootandpregnant/2013/03/when-catholics-play-tug-of-war-the-church-loses.html

 

We had Benedict because we needed him. We have Francis now, I think, because we also need him. We need beauty in the liturgy. We also need to help the poor. These two forces seem so ludicrously opposed to each other in American Catholicism. Either you’re a conservative, rad-trad, pro-Liturgy Catholic or you’re a liberal, social-justice, pro-guitars-and-holding-hands-during-the-Our-Father-Catholic. And anyone who takes the blogosphere as an example probably thinks we Catholics spend all our time hunkered down in our trenches, lobbing carefully-worded-blog-post-bombs at each other, waiting for the other side to go over the top so we can mow them down and cleanse the Church of that crap for once and for all.

 

We’re waging a pointless and counterproductive war on each other. Both sides are defending deposits of the faith. Good, beautiful, true things that we have learned through our mutual faith, things which our faith needs equally in order to flourish. Can you imagine what might happen if we stopped haunting each other’s comboxes, accusing each other of heresy, and instead spent that energy working together to make the Church better? Maybe we could even *deep breath* try and see what’s true, good, and beautiful about the other. Like, maybe I could go to a Tridentine Mass and viciously repress my inner Jan Hus and really, really try to see the beauty in that ancient liturgy that bequeathed to me the faith I hold so dear today. And maybe whoever runs Rorate Caeli could go to a Novus Ordo Mass in Spanish in Immokalee, the town down the street from me, and instead of being horrified at the abuses in the liturgy really, really try to see the beauty in these migrant workers shuffling into the pews after a day of back-breaking work in the Florida sun, sweaty and dirty and wearing jeans, but resisting the urge to go home and collapse until they’ve seen Jesus.

 

Our faith is so multi-faceted. That’s why we have a gazillion saints. They’re all doing something different, giving us different examples to follow. Not everyone can be Francis of Assisi, living in blissful poverty, fasting and praying. Someone had to be St. Thomas Aquinas, puzzling out the finest points of theology while remaining very very well-fed. And our Church would be infinitely poorer if Francis and Thomas Aquinas had spent all their time arguing over whose way was better instead of just doing the work God had set before them. We all have different work to do in the Church, and God wants all of us to help make his Church complete. But we we can’t very well do that if we’re busy tearing each other to shreds.

[Noel's angel]

they're just shoes.

 

In that case, why not just wear the red ones?

 

The BBC reported the following (with regards to the 'carnival' quote):

 

 

Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

I suppose it depends on how much you trust the BBC.

[Lil Red]

:pinch:

 

what? please tell me where in doctrine or dogma it says that the Pope must wear red shoes. or must wear the cape thing. seriously. are people getting upset because the Pope is deciding not to follow certain traditions that have just crept up over the hundreds of years? i am being serious here and not sarcastic.

[Marie-Therese]

:pinch:

Why this?  Pope John Paul II wore brown shoes.  I read somewhere that his predecessor John Paul I never wore the red shoes either.  

 

I understand the symbolism and many of the traditional aspects of the papal garb, etc., but I don't recall anyone marking Pope John Paul II a heretic for his preference in shoes,  

 

As for the Holy Father Francis, my initial reaction is that he chooses to lead by example.  Will all his decisions be good ones?  Doubtful.  None ever are with men,  However, with him I feel some sense of hope that I have not felt in a long time.  I hope that my initial emotions are borne out as true.  Up until that point, I reserve judgement and will watch eagerly what transpires in the next days.  What is needed in the world is a Holy Father who shows the face of Christ to the people.  I hope and pray that the Pope is a man who will do that.

[Lil Red]

In that case, why not just wear the red ones?

 

maybe he doesn't like red? maybe he thinks it clashes? how in the hell am i supposed to know? once again, they're just shoes. why get upset over it?

 

and I really don't trust anything the media says, even the BBC.

[Era Might]

In that case, why not just wear the red ones?

 

The BBC reported the following (with regards to the 'carnival' quote):

 

 

Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican official called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

I suppose it depends on how much you trust the BBC.

 

Is that any more shocking than that words of Christ when he confronted the traditions of the pharisees?

 

 

"Woe to you, blind guides, who say, `If any one swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'

[17] You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 
[18] And you say, `If any one swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if any one swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.' 
[19] You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 
[20] So he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by everything on it; 
[21] and he who swears by the temple, swears by it and by him who dwells in it; 
[22] and he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it. 
[23]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

[24] You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! 
[25]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity.

[26] You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean. 
[27]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

[28] So you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but within you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 
[29]

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,

[30] saying, `If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 
[31] Thus you witness against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 
[32] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 
[33] You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 
[34] Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 
[35] that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 
[36] Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. 
[37]

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

[38] Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. 
[39] For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

 

--Matthew 23:16-39