Ecumenical Patriarch To Attend Pope's Inaugural Mass

[Apotheoun]

I am aware of what the Papacy looks like to the East.  And of what it looked like to the Early Church. I'm also aware that the entire east has fallen into heresy and schism at various points. Rome, the visible sign of unity, the seat of authority has not.

 

Antiquarianism, obduracy in schism, Caesaropapism, and utterly non-evangelical ethnocentrism does not actually seem to me, with my silly Papalist assumptions, to be a very impressive set of arguments against the Holy Father.

Just as Pope Honorius and Pope Liberius fell into heresy, and several other popes for that matter. Heresy has happened in both Churches.

[Evangetholic]

I agree that the truths of Christianity are truths fallen from heaven.

 

I do not agree that the Early Church had the same understanding of doctrine that either the modern East or West have.

 

The Third Person of the Trinity is perpetually leading the Church into deeper knowledge of herself and more importantly her Lord.

[Apotheoun]

. . .

 

Antiquarianism, obduracy in schism, Caesaropapism, and utterly non-evangelical ethnocentrism does not actually seem to me, with my silly Papalist assumptions, to be a very impressive set of arguments against the Holy Father.

My Orthodox friends could easily take this statement and with minor modifications apply it to the West. Perhaps you need to try and see outside of your small bubble of existence.

[Evangetholic]

Just as Pope Honorius and Pope Liberius fell into heresy, and several other popes for that matter. Heresy has happened in both Churches.

 

Many Catholics would deny these cases. I accept them both as having fallen into heresy--but that they did so without taking the Church with them, without authoritatively positing their doctrinal peculiarities.

[Apotheoun]

I agree that the truths of Christianity are truths fallen from heaven.

 

I do not agree that the Early Church had the same understanding of doctrine that either the modern East or West have.

 

The Third Person of the Trinity is perpetually leading the Church into deeper knowledge of herself and more importantly her Lord.

Yes, I know that the West has a different perspective, I was a Western Christian for the first 42 years of my life. But the more I read the Fathers the more I realized that the Western viewpoint is not that ancient. For example the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Athanasios in De Synodis) held that the patriarchs of the Old Testament experienced God as a Trinity. And you must admit that that makes a lot more sense than saying God was utterly unknown in His living experience prior to the incarnation. I mean the Trinity didn't just pop into being at the incarnation. Abraham - according to the Fathers - spoke to the pre-incarnate Christ, as did Moses, and the other prophets of the Old Covenant. After all, the Old and New Covenants are not two totally separate and unrelated books. The Eastern tradition has always taught that God was experienced as Tri-hypostatic by the saints of the Old Covenant, even if they could not intellectually formulate this truth. Heck I have run into a lot of Christians who can intellectually formulate the Trinity but don't really believe in it or experience God in that way. It's sad but true. Thankfully salvation is not dependent upon intellectually formulating or grasping things about God; instead, it is about having an actual living experience of (and with) Him.

[Apotheoun]

Many Catholics would deny these cases. I accept them both as having fallen into heresy--but that they did so without taking the Church with them, without authoritatively positing their doctrinal peculiarities.

I know. I have read various defenses of Honorius, but they all fall flat. He was condemned as a heretic at the 6th ecumenical council. Such is life.

[Evangetholic]

My Orthodox friends could easily take this statement and with minor modifications apply it to the West. Perhaps you need to try and see outside of your small bubble of existence.

 

My views are not personal to me--and if they are, then I abjure them right now.

 

Your Orthodox friends seem to be an opinionated lot with an unhealthy fixation on Catholicism. Mayhap they are all ex-Protestants who still can't help seeing Holy Church as Mystery Babylon, or disgruntled ex-Catholics who wanted a church that allowed them divorce and contraception. I'd personally love a church that allowed me to pursue Justin Bieber with the full ardour of my desire.

[Apotheoun]

Many Catholics would deny these cases. I accept them both as having fallen into heresy--but that they did so without taking the Church with them, without authoritatively positing their doctrinal peculiarities.

It is also interesting to note that the man who would become Pope Adrian VI, while teaching theology at the University of Louvain, did not know that the bishop of Rome was supposed to be infallible, for as he put it: 

 

"If by the Roman Church is understood its head, that is the pope, it is certain that it can err, even in those matters which concern the Faith, by publishing heresy in its decisions and decrees.  For many Roman Pontiffs have been heretics.  Of recent times it is reported that Pope John XXII publicly taught, declared, and commanded to be believed by all, that purified souls do not have the clear vision of God before the Final Judgment."

 

It is also interesting that he says Pope John XXII publicly taught error. Fascinating what you can find out by reading texts in defense of Gallicanism.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

My views are not personal to me--and if they are, then I abjure them right now.

 

Your Orthodox friends seem to be an opinionated lot with an unhealthy fixation on Catholicism. 

Actually I do not think it is an "unhealthy fixation on Catholicism" but a real interest in me as a friend, because I have no doubt that many of them want me to convert to Orthodoxy. Alas, as I have told them I am happy as an Eastern Catholic.

[Evangetholic]

Yes, I know that the West has a different perspective, I was a Western Christian for the first 42 years of my life. But the more I read the Fathers the more I realized that the Western viewpoint is not that ancient. For example the Church Fathers (e.g., St. Athanasios in De Synodis) held that the patriarchs of the Old Testament experienced God as a Trinity. And you must admit that that makes a lot more sense than saying God was utterly unknown in His living experience prior to the incarnation. I mean the Trinity didn't just pop into being at the incarnation. Abraham - according to the Fathers - spoke to the pre-incarnate Christ, as did Moses, and the other prophets of the Old Covenant. After all, the Old and New Covenants are not two totally separate and unrelated books. The Eastern tradition has always taught that God was experienced as Tri-hypostatic by the saints of the Old Covenant, even if they could not intellectually formulate this truth. Heck I have run into a lot of Christians who can intellectually formulate the Trinity but don't really believe in it or experience God in that way. It's sad but true. Thankfully salvation is not dependent upon intellectually formulating or grasping things about God; instead, it is about having an actual living experience of (and with) Him.

 

I thought you were a young rogue.

 

I agree with this to a point, but it's honestly out of my depth.

[Apotheoun]

I thought you were a young rogue.

 

I agree with this to a point, but it's honestly out of my depth.

Nope, I'm old. I converted to Roman Catholicism in 1987 at the age of 24, and became an Eastern Catholic in 2005. 

 

:hehe2:

[Evangetholic]

It is also interesting to note that the man who would become Pope Adrian VI, while teaching theology at the University of Louvain, did not know that the bishop of Rome was supposed to be infallible, for as he put it: 

 

"If by the Roman Church is understood its head, that is the pope, it is certain that it can err, even in those matters which concern the Faith, by publishing heresy in its decisions and decrees.  For many Roman Pontiffs have been heretics.  Of recent times it is reported that Pope John XXII publicly taught, declared, and commanded to be believed by all, that purified souls do not have the clear vision of God before the Final Judgment."

 

It is also interesting that he says Pope John XXII publicly taught error. Fascinating what you can find out by reading texts in defense of Gallicanism.

 

John XXII would not be the only Pope who taught error (if that's true).  I'd name more recent examples, but I'm sure you can imagine why I won't.

 

The Popes are given a negative protection against error under very particular circumstances--as you well know. The Infallibility of the Church, not the Popes, is the rockstar of Catholic Theology.

[Evangetholic]

And many things that are legally/theologically possible are done in the West based solely on the fact that they can be done. I think this is honestly making a shipwreck of the Western Church. (The most glaring example of this would be the war we declared on our own liturgy fifty years ago. I agree with you that the West is not healthy. I also think that poor health is the result of the liturgical changes we undertook. If I've gone to far with this moderators, I apologize.)

[Apotheoun]

John XXII would not be the only Pope who taught error (if that's true).  I'd name more recent examples, but I'm sure you can imagine why I won't.

 

The Popes are given a negative protection against error under very particular circumstances--as you well know. The Infallibility of the Church, not the Popes, is the rockstar of Catholic Theology.

The key phrase in the quotation from Prof. Adriaan Florenszoon Boeyens (i.e., the future Pope Adrian VI) is publicly taught, declared, and commanded to be believed by all, because that statement contradicts the theory put forward at the late 19th century council held at the Vatican.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Now let's get back to the good news . . . Patriarch Bartholomew is going to attend the inaugural Mass of Pope Francis.  

 

:yahoo: