Papist Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 So if an amesome loving person dies without becoming Catholic are we to presume that Hell has got a new inhabitant? Btw, some kind of Jesus must have existed! The Catechism of the Catholic Church, following historic Christian theology since the time of the early Church Fathers, refers to the Catholic Church as "the universal sacrament of salvation" (CCC 774–776), and states: "The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men" (CCC 780). Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 By simply asking them If they really saw with their own eyes this Jesus and his historical coming. Do you believe George Washington or Napoleon existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Do you believe George Washington or Napoleon existed? Are you referring to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington? My answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Are you referring to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington? My answer is yes. Why you believe they existed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) So if an amesome loving person dies without becoming Catholic are we to presume that Hell has got a new inhabitant? Btw, some kind of Jesus must have existed! Yes. You'll note that HSMom and I have given you different short answers. That's the trouble with short answers, we'd give you the same long one I think. Edited March 11, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Who among you, priest, bishop, pope, your historian, scholars, your early fathers, your billions and billions of Catholic even none Catholics, all of you or all of us, including Luke, Apostle Paul, Moses, Jonah...all holy prophet of God. Who among all of us SAW this Jesus you are talking? Tell me. Okay. It seems you have witnesses of this Jesus. Tell me who are they? I've never seen my grandfather. I suppose that makes him nonexistent as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Yes. You'll note that HSMom and I have given you different short answers. That's the trouble with short answers, we'd give you the same long one I think. The question is are we to presume that the person is in hell. I believe the Church warns us not to presume anyone in particular is in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I've never seen my grandfather. I suppose that makes him nonexistent as well. I've never seen you. What does that say about you? :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 The question is are we to presume that the person is in hell. I believe the Church warns us not to presume anyone in particular is in hell. Touche Madame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I've never seen you. What does that say about you? :| Untrue. You've seen videos and pictures a plenty. However, I've never seen a trace of you. Perhaps it is you who truly does not exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Touche Madame She is rather level headed, and in this case, correct. Any kind of question about whether or not we can presume a individual is in hell must be answered in the negative. The Church does not have the keys to hell like she has for heaven. She cannot tell which individuals are in hell. But if your yes, was more to the point that dying in a state of mortal sin, outside the state of grace, outside the ark of salvation the Church, then yes dying in such a state can lead to the damnation of a soul. But whether or not an individual was or was not in that state at the moment of death is known only to God and we cannot presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Untrue. You've seen videos and pictures a plenty. However, I've never seen a trace of you. Perhaps it is you who truly does not exist? Photoshop'ed the lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 She is rather level headed, and in this case, correct. Any kind of question about whether or not we can presume a individual is in hell must be answered in the negative. The Church does not have the keys to hell like she has for heaven. She cannot tell which individuals are in hell. But if your yes, was more to the point that dying in a state of mortal sin, outside the state of grace, outside the ark of salvation the Church, then yes dying in such a state can lead to the damnation of a soul. But whether or not an individual was or was not in that state at the moment of death is known only to God and we cannot presume. I assumed OP wasn't using "presume" with precision. But yes--I do not mean to eagerly put people in Hell, I just mean to not presume that everyone (or even most/many) outside of the Church is "covered" by invincible ignorance and the like. (And I've read enough of your posts to know you'll agree.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Untrue. You've seen videos and pictures a plenty. However, I've never seen a trace of you. Perhaps it is you who truly does not exist? How do I know that those pixels are you? :| And I never claimed that I exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Why you believe they existed? Don’t you really know why you need to see him first? The way you are laying your argument is something like this: Why I believe that these people really exist since I do not see them? So, your argument is, why then do I need to see by my own eyes this Jesus? Don’t you really know why you need to be very sure about this? Okay. Suppose, I believe that Napoleon and Washington existed long time ago and then, I found out that I was deceived (by you for example) since they do not really exist. My question is this: What disaster it will bring to my soul? Edited March 11, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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