Having Doubts

[Guest]

I don't really want this to turn into a debate so I posted here. If it does and has to be moved that's fine. Also if no one replies that's ok also. I'm more less just thinking out loud to where I am at right now spiritually.

I will always believe in God. I could never become an atheist. I feel I have experienced God first hand in my life and I will never doubt a loving creator of the universe and all life.

The doubt I am dealing with though is if I really believe in Christianity (Catholicism). When I say believe I mean it in the way I believe in God. I believe in God with every part of my being. Being honest though I can't honestly say the same for Christianity/Catholicism anymore. And since I've made the choice to identify as a catholic I've always embraced every thing it taught. I haven't practiced it well but I've agreed with the teachings and defended them when asked and in my mind when going back and forth with myself.

The problem for me starts with the bible. Since really coming to understand the old testament I have not been able to embrace it. Its not the God I know and to be honest not the God I can defend at all times with a clear conscience. Also I was raised to believe that all the stories of the old testament were true. I'm finding out now they are not. Which is ok with me and I can see how they can be used to tell a story. But why tell me growing up they were true. Jonas was never in a whale. There was no world wide flood. A snake didn't talk to Adam and eve. And most likely God is not some one with a bunch of blood on His hands that needs defending from Christians who when they do so a lot of times it seems as if they are reaching. I don't want to quote verses we all know the ones I'm talking about.

So that brings to where I'm at now. If the old testament is not real stories why am I to think any different of the new testament ? This is not an attack on Jesus. I love Jesus. I love God. With my whole heart. Me questioning this is not an attack or hatred of Jesus. What it is though is me being almost 32 asking my self tough questions to what I really believe? I don't want to be a christian/catholic because I was raised to be one and I don't want to cease being one because a church and bible teaches I will burn in hell for eternity if I cease being one. On the other hand if these claims are true I want to follow God the best I can and not danger my soul. Although where I'm at right now I don't really know if I believe the God I believe in is the Jewish christian god or a god of religion at all. Lol And I hate myself for that because I was the guy always attacking the new age movement. I never thought I would be here saying hey maybe God is not the god of religion. Do I believe religion holds truth to God ? Yes for sure. But at the same time I believe religion seems to teach things about God that are not true and very destructive.

I have been spending the last few days reading about writers in the time of Jesus. I find it troubling that there were was not much said about Jesus at the time he lived. Ya you have the gospels but other then that there seems to be nothing in that first century. What really bothered me was this guy named Josephus had nothing to say about Jesus yet so much to say about everything and everyone else at that time. There is one paragraph where he mentions Jesus yet this seems to be a hoax. It wasn't mentioned until the 4th century. None of the early church fathers brought up what Josephus supposedly said about Jesus. I've seen it then argued that Josephus did mention Jesus just not to the extent his speech was altered to say. I mean after all Josephus was a Jew. He never converted. So his writing was for sure altered and the question remains did he write of Jesus at all ? And why didn't he ? If Jesus did all these miracles and was raised from the dead and appeared with saints who were also dead and 1000's of people seen it why didn't Josephus write about it ? Why didn't he write about saint Paul ? Why is he silent on all this ? Why why why.

I don't want to keep writing all day. I just wanted to do this thread so maybe some people could chime in and to also say where I'm at spiritually. I've never looked to history about all this and am still some what shocked. At the end of the day I only want to be a searcher of truth. If that leads me away from Christianity then it will be sad but I don't want to stay involved with something just because.

I believe in God and His Love with everything I have inside me. I'm bad at the love part but I know that is who God is. Love. And I know the Bible and the Church teach this and for that I'm thankful. I do think though if religion isn't true and men in the church from the earliest of times have lied about it for political control and power then that is a very evil deed. And something I don't want to be a part of. I love the pham here. You guys have always been beyond cool. And thanks for being a place I can come and write this and not be judged. This Lent has been a crazy one I guess. I'm still catholic christian I'm just really questioning whether knowing and loving God requires that

God bless

Edited March 8, 2013 by Guest
helping with paragraph breaks

[Guest]

Sorry for grammar mistakes and no paragraphs...I'm on a crappy phone...

[Guest]

Also I left out my trouble about the cross and Jesus having to do that...That with the old testament has always troubled me and never seemed right. I could never make it work out in my mind. That God the Father would put that on Jesus for Him to go through.

 

I've meditated on it for hours and hours and still get no where.

 

I remember and old priest once talking about Jesus and the whole cross and he said it was insanity.

 

He wasn't attacking God just saying it made no sense and we have to just have faith in God.

 

And I appreciated his honestly then and still do now.

 

The only thing now is I'm honestly making myself deal with if this is actually true and did it really happen.

 

Because if it isn't I will not embrace it.

 

If loving God doesn't require that then I will be the first to let all of that go and be a thing of the past.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest
Styling help

[Guest]

I don't really want this to turn into a debate so I posted here. If it does and has to be moved that's fine. Also if no one replies that's ok also. I'm more less just thinking out loud to where I am at right now. I will always believe in God. I could never become an atheist. I feel I have experienced God first hand in my life and I will never doubt a loving creator of the universe and all life.............The doubt I am dealing with though is if I really believe in christianity (catholicism). When I say believe I mean it in the way I believe in God. I believe in God with every part of my being. Being honest though I can't honestly say the same for christianity/catholicism anymore. And since I've made the choice to identify as a catholic I've always embraced every thing it taught. I haven't practiced it well but I've agreed with the teachings and defended them when asked and in my mind when going back and forth with myself.............The problem for me starts with the bible. Since really coming to understand the old testement I have not been able to embrace it. Its not the God I know and to be honest not the God I can defend at all times with a clear conscience. Also I was raised to believe that all the stories of the old testement were true. I'm findint out now they are not. Which is ok with me and I can see how they can be used to tell a story. But why tell me growing up they were true. Jonas ws never in a whale. There was no world wide flood. A snake didn't talk to adam and eve. And most likely God is not some one with a bunch of blood on His hands that needs defending from christians who when they do so a lot of times it seems as if they are reaching. I don't want to quote verses we all know the ones I'm talking about.................So that brings to where I'm at now. If the old testement is not real stories why am I to think any different of the new testement ? This is not an attack on Jesus. I love Jesus. I love God. With my whole heart. Me questioning this is not an attack or hatred of Jesus. What it is though is me being almost 32 asking my self tough questions to what I really believe? I don't want to be a christian/catholic because I was raised to be one and I don't want to cease being one because a church and bible teaches I will burn in hell for eternity if I cease being one. On the other hand if these claims are true I want to follow God the best I can and not danger my soul. Although where I'm at right now I don't really know if I believe the God I believe in is the jewish christian god or a god of religion at all. Lol And I hate myself for that because I was the guy always attacking the new age movement. I never thought I would be here saying hey mabey God is not the god of religion. Do I believe religion holds truth to God ? Yes for sure. But at the same time I believe religion seems to teach things about God that are not true and very destuctive..................I have been spending the last few days reading about writers in the time of Jesus. I find it troubling that there were was not much said about Jesus at the time he lived. Ya you have the gospels but other then that there seems to be nothing in that first century. What really bothered me was this guy named Josephus had nothing to say about Jesus yet so much to say about everything and everyone else at that time. There is one paragraph where he mentions Jesus yet this seems to be a hoax. It wasn't mentioned until the 4th century. None of the early church fathers brought up what Josephus supposedly said about Jesus. I've seen it tthen argued that Josephus did mention Jesus just not to the extent his speach was altered to say. I mean after all Josephus was a jew. He never converted. So his writing was for sure altered and the question remains did he write of Jesus at all ? And why didn't he ? If Jesus did all these miracles and was raised from the dead and appeared with saints who were also dead and 1000's of people seen it why didn't Josephus write about it ? Why didn't he write about saint paul ? Why is he silent on all this ? Why why why...........................I don't want to keep writing all day. I just wanted to do this thread so mabey some people could chime in and to also say where I'm at spirtually. I've never looked to history about all this and am still some what shocked. At the end of the day I only want to be a searcher of truth. If that leads me away from christianity then it will be sad but I don't want to stay involved with something just because...................... I believe in God and His Love with everything I have inside me. I'm bad at the love part but I know that is who God is. Love. And I know the Bible and the Church teach this and for that I'm thankful. I do think though if religion isn't true and men in the church from the earliest of times have lied about it for political control and power then that is a very evil deed. And something I don't want to be a part of. I love the pham here. You guys have always been beyond cool. And thanks for being a place I can come and write this and not be judged. This Lent has been a crazy one I guess. I'm still catholic christian I'm just really questioning wether knowing and loving God requires that..........Godbless.....

[Guest]

And my doubt started again when reading about Josephus and writers outside of the Bible that lived at the time of Jesus.

 

Maybe this is the devil attacking me and bringing me to this knowledge.

 

But when I see it debated with Christians I have to be honest their case doesn't look good. And it really looks bad when they still quote Josephus to saying things he clearly didn't say and were added and not known about til the 4th century.

 

Why would any christian still do this? Because it then really makes it look like they are trying to sell something that isn't true. It does way more damage then any good they may think it might do...People do not want to be lied to and brainwashed.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest
Paragraph breaks

[LouisvilleFan]

I'm not familiar with Josephus. Do you have a reference? I know there are references to Jesus and Christians among other writings, but it's not something I've ever researched intensely.

 

As for the Old Testament stories not being "real," obviously just because someone taught a false interpretation of the Scriptures as a child does not make the Scriptures false. If you were raised to think steak is delicious because it comes from a horse, and later learned it actually comes from a cow, should you cease to eat steak for that reason?

 

Besides, I think most of the events you cite can be interpreted literally according to the Catholic Faith. Jesus refers to Jonah like it really happened, and certainly we must question if Jesus really spent three days in hell if Jonah did not spend three days in the whale. We believe God formed Adam and Eve to be the first humans and there was a temptation and a fall from grace. Of course, what you believe about it scientifically is beside the point. Catholicism doesn't enforce a single interpretation of Scripture like fundamentalists do.

 

It may be worthy to keep in mind that in earthly terms, Jesus was a relatively insignificant figure in a backwater town out in the boondocks of the Roman Empire. Plus, it's not like he was the only guy walking around claming to be the Messiah or working miracles. He's not the person people would waste very precious ink writing about until the Christian cult began to concern Ceasar and others in power.

[Maggyie]

Delivery, one area of research for you might be Pontius Pilate.

 

the Romans kept records of everything. EVERYTHING. Pilate was a Roman governor, and yet there was no scrap of written evidence that he ever existed. Nothing from the Roman archives mentions him.

 

It was considered pretty damning. How could this be, a Roman governor with no physical evidence? He was a ghost. I'm sure this shook the faith of many historians who knew just how unusual it was for him to be absent from all the records.

 

And then... in 1961... they happened to find a stone in a Roman theatre at Caesarea with his name carved in it. It was carbon dated back to the year AD 25.

 

This is still the only physical evidence we have that Pilate ever existed. And for more than a thousand years, we didn't have even that. Against all the odds - it's still incredible that the rest of the Roman archeological record is silent on Pilate.

 

But that's how history is. We don't have the evidence until we do. That doesn't mean it's not there. It means we haven't found it yet.

 

Don't put too much stock in any one historian. Josephus definitely wrote with a certain bias - he was a Jew who became a Roman citizen. His works were not exhaustive and it's a mistake to consider him a completely reliable chronicler. As with any historian, actually, even our modern day writers.

[Lilllabettt]

I have a hobby of reading biographies of Abraham Lincoln -- and I never fail to be  flabbergasted by the different interpretations these historians come up with. And the "stretches" they make.   I saw the same quote in two different books - the one  historian used it to suggest that Lincoln was gay and the other that he was a womanizer. The current seminal multi-volume work speculates that Mary Todd Lincoln seduced Abraham Lincoln into unwed hanky panky and that's why they hastily got married with 1 days notice. So much of history is just idle speculation ---  but its all in these respectable history books written by esteemed members of the academy  -- so its presented as Gospel.

[Guest]

Thanks for your replies guys. Josephus wrote about everything though. If Jesus existed to the extent scripture makes him out to exist it would of been wrote about. I mean the sun and sky was darkened for three hours ? There was an earthquake ? This would of been known about and talked by him and others. Writer Philo Judaeus who was right in the area and lived before and after the time of Jesus supposedly performed all of these miracles and died on the cross writes nothing of him either. Not one mention yet he wrote about everything else going on at the time. This is a huge red flag for me. Its just like a punch to the stomach and a huge wow realizing there is a good shot everything I thought was true is not.

 

And I can handle that and if I leave Christianity behind I will still cherish the good aspects I learned from it. Like I said I will always believe in a God. Life without God makes no sense. I'm convinced He or she or it or what have you is real. I'm just surprised and let down to learn that the stories of the new testament (at least to the extent they are told) probably never happened. They are hyped up for whatever reason. So then original sin and everything else is up for question and the whole Jesus being God and dying for sins. Again if the old testament can't be trusted why should the new testament be trusted ? Or if the old testament is full of myth and partial truth why not the same for the new testament  I used to think "Christianity"as the true religion and everyone else had it wrong. And that's really ignorant to think when I never even looked into history and looked at things from both sides. I guess what is really sad is how many people have been killed because of religion and all in the name of "god". Again I respect everyone here and thank you for listening and being cool. I think what I'm realizing is life is about love and moving forward. If you do that through religion that's cool but in the end its only about love.

Edited March 9, 2013 by Guest
Styling edits

[Guest]

Talked to Mark Shea on facebook.

 

He gave me some stuff to read and his number.

 

We are going to talk next week.

 

He also told me to pray to Saint Thomas.

[Nihil Obstat]

Talked to Mark Shea on facebook...He gave me some stuff to read and his number...We are going to talk next week...He also told me to pray to Saint Thomas...

That is good of him.

[Guest]

Yea seems like a great guy...

[Guest]

Thanks to whoever put this in paragraph form...I only have internet on my phone and it won't let me on here...

[Guest]

Thank you Fransican Heart.

[franciscanheart]

Thank you Fransican Heart.

You're welcome. :)