Late Term Abortionist Tiller Should Have Been Shot

[dairygirl4u2c]

i know this has been debated before here. not only that it got heated w a lot of people. so i avoided starting the topic. but ive refined my arguments and organized them. things like how closing clinics saves lives gets lost in the thread and understanding instead of prominent.

i had been debating this elsewhere and decided to bring my refined points back for debate.

there are a lot of points id only use w secular pro choice types, and understand thats not as applicable here.t

 

 

HE DID THEM ILLEGALLY... (and carhart does too
.
http://www.christianpost.com......
Operation Rescue ran its own investigation and released reports of former patients who testified that the Women's Health Care Services in Wichita " where Carhart was employed at the time " falsified the gestational age of viable babies to avoid complying with the law and performed illegal abortions. Kansas law prohibits abortion when the fetus is viable unless the mother's life in danger.

and

Quote

Luhra (Tivis) Warren, a former Tiller employee, wrote the following:

"I was required to falsify the medical records. But not just that, related to that, I was required to lie to the women over the phone. And the way he'd explain it to me was, without coming right out and saying it, these are really third trimester abortions, but we're going to tell them they're only in the second trimester. They would say, well, I've already had a sonogram, and my bpd was 7.8 or 8.3 or whatever. He said, when they tell you that, don't turn them away as being too far along. Tell them to come in, and we'll do our own sonogram, and it will show they're not that far along. Tell them that sonogram reading is an art, not a science. He explained to me that the bpd is a measurement of the angle of the baby's head, where at that angle, the baby's head is roughly egg-shaped. The usual way that you measure the bpd is from the top of the egg to the bottom of the egg, which is at the widest point. But we measure it from side to side, at the narrowest point." from Celebrate Life Sept/Oct 1994 "Where is the Real Violence?"

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HE DID THEM FOR TRIVIAL REASONS

'late term abortion, cause the mom says she had too many kids'

Quote

"Jessica speaks out"
we decided having 2 babies under 1 year old was not going to work for us with [5] children total, so after thinking about it we decided upon an abortion though it was painful to think about.
I was I believe 26 weeks along which is pretty far in my book, but anyway.
First day was taking blood, sonogram to see exactly how far along I was, etc... which they wouldn't let me see the sonogram photo when I asked.

I can remember Tiller half-delivering my baby, jabbing the scissors into his head, & killing him. Then just kind of throwing him to the side and finishing up.

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he did them late term for trivial reaSONS...
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Quote

[Tiller gave out a video called] "Philosophies and techniques of late term abortion services at Women's Health Care Services". In this video, Tiller talks openly about the reasons women come to Wichita for late-term abortion which include "occupational issues" and "financial issues".

Quote

Dr. Paul McHugh is a Professor of Psychiatry at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. McHugh was hired by the then-Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline to review some of Tiller's records. McHugh said the records show Tiller performed abortions for trivial reasons. One woman even said she was having a late-term, abortion because she wanted to go to a rock concert. Click here to see Dr. McHugh's interview in Lenexa, Kansas on June 11, 2007.

https://www.youtube.com......
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political and legal process werent working....
CLOSING CLINICS SAVES LIVES

We know from experience that closing abortion clinics saves lives. In 2006, Operation Rescue bought and closed Central Women�s Services, an abortion clinic in Wichita, Kansas. On the day we took possession of the building, we were able to speak with one woman who came for an abortion, but chose instead to keep her baby. The building was completely renovated and now serves as Operation Rescue�s national headquarters.

Over the ensuing months, many women have come to our offices seeking abortions. We have referred them to a pro-life pregnancy center next door where the director tells us that every woman who has come to them seeking an abortion at our former abortion building has instead made the decision to chose life for their babies.

Since the closure of Women�s Health Care Services in June, 2009, Wichita has become an abortion-free community. That same pregnancy center reports a dramatic increase in business and in requests for adoption information. Since abortions are not available in Wichita, more and more women who would have resorted to abortion as a quick solution to their problems have instead sought the help and support they needed to cope with their crisis pregnancies in ways that did not include the intentional death of their babies.

Study weighs threats' effects on abortion providers
BY DAVID GOLDSTEIN
Washington correspondent

WASHINGTON � An abortion rights group has found that doctors and clinics in six states, including Missouri, that perform abortions "are routinely targeted" for legal and physical harassment, including death threats.

The result, according to a study by the Center for Reproductive Rights � an international legal advocacy group � is that women seeking to terminate pregnancies face a dwindling supply of providers as threats and intimidation take their toll.
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HIS DEATH WAS JUSTIFIABLE PHILOSOPHICALLY

we have just war theory, and defense of others if death is imminent. i think just war applies. otherwise we have defense of others.... while noy literally immeint who cares? we donty have to be just whatever orthodoxy has happened to allow. its the point that matters. desperate times desperate measures.... defense of others but not truly immenient, a death will soon occur. understood not normative law or ethics.... but bottomline, if u are gonna kill us very likely etc... u should die. otherwise wed just be sticking to tradiotion of whats been allowed and overlooking the point involved, and not be a little more unorthodox.

bottomline... what if they were killing two year olds and it was generally legal? not only that what if it was illegal at times and effective to shoot the few two year old killers? poltics and law werent working.... what is the moral thing to do?

(also, the prolife building next to tiller had very high success preventing abortion when getting a chance to talk to the women. before and after tiller was shut down. why didnt tiller refer them there first at least as a suggestion etc? it follows that he cared more about money, why else wouldnt he do things to help reduce abortion
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common objections
mother's life endangered. exceptions for that and should be. isnt trivial reason. dont know why you point it out. all u have left is body soverignty to justify the abortion. but as said, she had plenty of time to abort earlier when more morally gray, and she is responsible for the conception so she does not have absolute right here.

society cant do this? civil war, revolutions, defending others etc... killing is sometimes necessary.
address the two year old hypothetical. almost everyone would agree that should be a moral necessity to defend them. the only distinction you could make is body soverignty arguments. but if u do make this argument.... how is it not her responsibility that the child was conceived so not her absolute right (even the law recognizes no absolute right), and how not her fault she did not abort sooner when morally grayer?

i could see if he did them for trivial reasons at a point where it's legal, and for nontrivial when it's illegal. the only thing that is not trivial and not the mom's life, is a deformed baby. i could understand if that was the reason he did them, i may need more information.... it sounds like he was not this scrupulous.
we see aborted at 26 weeks for too many kids. far as i can tell, that's illegal or pushin it. id guess that far along the baby is viable and there no threat to moms life. but i admit im no expert

Edited March 7, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[4588686]

Nope

[Selah]

No. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Edited March 10, 2013 by Selah

[dairygirl4u2c]

id like someone to engage my reasoning, with preferably focus on the two year old hypothetical

[CatherineM]

You have no reason to engage.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i have a differing morality than you, it doesn't mean i lack reason. in fact, i almost always find those who disagree with me to lack moral consistency, and lack justification for their beliefs. the little reasoning they have is usually hard to follow, and overall they lack reasoning in the first place. 

dont get me wrong though, there are plenty who will talk trash, without bothering to get into substance. if it was so easy on substance, they shouldnt hesitate. but almost always do, usually as a subconscious psychological ploy to not bother them with thoughts that alter their world view, cognitive dissonance.  

Edited May 23, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[havok579257]

i have a differing morality than you, it doesn't mean i lack reason. in fact, i almost always find those who disagree with me to lack moral consistency, and lack justification for their beliefs. the little reasoning they have is usually hard to follow, and overall they lack reasoning in the first place. 

dont get me wrong though, there are plenty who will talk trash, without bothering to get into substance. if it was so easy on substance, they shouldnt hesitate. but almost always do, usually as a subconscious psychological ploy to not bother them with thoughts that alter their world view, cognitive dissonance.  

 

 

so my question is, if you advocate his killing, why are you not doing this for other abortionist who do the same thing?  why are you not going to kill other abortionist?

[dairygirl4u2c]

the main reason is cause im a coward and don't want to go to jail. the other reasons are justifiable though in that id be more effective in life for abortion and otherwise not in jail. im sure there's plenty who would be of most worth to the pro life cause to just end up in jail.
I have very seriously considered when im too old or sure to die relatively soon, to find other abortionists like tiller, and kill them. id have to make sure I weighed the evidence satisfactorialy that they were doing illegal abortions of viable babies for trivial reasons, but as long as it seemed like legit evidence, I would have no problem taking them out. I mean, like a soldier or cop or something, it might be awkward taking out the bad guys, and cause you to stop and think etc.... but I wouldn't have any problems intellectually with taking them out. dirty job, but some body's got to do it.

Edited May 26, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[havok579257]

the main reason is cause im a coward and don't want to go to jail. the other reasons are justifiable though in that id be more effective in life for abortion and otherwise not in jail. im sure there's plenty who would be of most worth to the pro life cause to just end up in jail.
I have very seriously considered when im too old or sure to die relatively soon, to find other abortionists like tiller, and kill them. id have to make sure I weighed the evidence satisfactorialy that they were doing illegal abortions of viable babies for trivial reasons, but as long as it seemed like legit evidence, I would have no problem taking them out. I mean, like a soldier or cop or something, it might be awkward taking out the bad guys, and cause you to stop and think etc.... but I wouldn't have any problems intellectually with taking them out. dirty job, but some body's got to do it.

 

 

I have really problems with people advocate something but are to afraid to do what they advocate.  it shows that the thing they refuse to do is wrong.  if it were completely right they would have no problem doing it.  because you refuse to do it, it shows that deep down you know murder is wrong.  which it is.  It gets old listening to people advocate others be murdered or other people murder abortionist. yet they claim fear when asked why they don't do it.  that's a cop put.  your afraid to do it because you know its wrong to murder someone.  so this debate is null because we both know murder is wrong.

[dairygirl4u2c]

what about when people say  that we should go to war, but aren't willing to enlist? this includes by far most people. it doesn't mean their opinions are invalid just because they aren't willing to enlist... it just means they aren't willing to pay that price for what they think is a just, moral cause, in killing someone and risking danger yourself. it's more of personal concern, cause they think the killing is justified.

[dairygirl4u2c]

also you didnt get into a debate of ideas, much. it was mostly a gut speak..... it's wrong cause we just "know" it's wrong. and this gutspeak is so compelling that even i must deny all my arguments against it, just because our gutspeaks must say so....  ?

[TheLordsSouljah]

War is a different kettle of fish. If someone came at you with a knife you'd be kinda disposed to defending yourself?

[Quid Est Veritas?]

Vigiliantism is morally deplorable. If a justice system decided that the death penalty is called for in the case of a specific crime, it is then licit to take that life. But no person on his own may decide to execute justice according to his own lights. St. Rita of Cascia prayed that her sons not avenge their father's murder by killing the murderer, knowing that this would be another sin, that is another murder.
Tiller most certainly should not have been shot. Think how awful it was for him to die unprepared.

[Guest]

If burning people at the stake was ever justified then killing abortion doctors would be too.....although I don't think burning people at the stake was justifed....So I'm not for killing abortion doctors....

[jmjtina]

Murder is always wrong. Whether you want to murder a baby or an adult.

 

Just because you think the Earth is at the center of our solar system, and you have all these arguments for your case, it doesn't mean it's true. 

 

+pax