Should Children Be Shamed

[Lilllabettt]

Speaking as a teacher. I try to know my students. I have a student who turns beet red and hyperventilates when he is publically scolded. Shaming this student "whole group" would be cruel and ineffective. Then I have the 4 or 5 students who call me "stupid b****",   give me the finger, throw desks and chairs, cut the wires in the back of my computer, steal my wallet, etc.  They are 6 and 7 years old. Ridiculing them  - and believe me, in my darkest moments I am tempted - would only make them angrier. But they could use some shame. Today I found the "shame" for the one who tells me to "shut the f*** up." She is deeply embarassed when she has to apologize to the entire class. Before I was having her apologize to me, or to whatever student she'd smacked. Ineffective. Now she has to stand up in front of everyone, in the silence, with all eyes on her, and say she is sorry for being a distraction.

[Era Might]

So,  Im breaking off a branch  from another thread because I'm quite disturbed at the 1800's sense of discipline, that teachers should force students to hold hands (when it's not a matter of safety  that publicly admonishing and embarrassing a student.

 

I actually think it's horrid to embarrass a child on purpose or publicly shame them.  I've nannied, I take care of my friends kids (for days at a time) but I couldn't imagine shaming a child as a parent, never-mind a teacher.

 

Didn't see the previous thread, so not sure where this discussion came from, but seems that "shame" is making someone aware that they don't belong, and if they want to belong they had better do something (obey, think differently, act differently, appear differently, whatever it is). Making someone self-aware can be a good thing, I think, but it also has to be taken into consideration whether the person doing the shaming should be trying to make them belong. This is a major issue with schooling, where kids are forced into an artificial environment and routine...some kids adapt to the routine, some don't. Some respond by doing nothing, some respond by rebelling, some just respond by leaving. So I would say that the measurement of whether "shame" should be used is why do you want this person to belong, how important is it that they belong, and to what extent should you pressure them to belong? Sometimes people have to leave to realize why they never belonged (ala the prodigal son), and sometimes people just don't belong and never will (ala St. Francis throwing off his clothes and leaving his father's house forever).

[Winchester]

The answer is 'no'.

[Gabriela]

i'm probably a jerk alert.....

 

 

Addie was acting up in the grocery store.  They give away free cookies to kids if they have a 'cookie card'.  Well Addie had one, and boy did she use it.  She loved her cookie card, and would play with it, using it like a credit card for her little 'grocery store check out' toy.  Many, many times we would tell her not to play with it because she might lose it. (she's 4 and misplaces things).  She would listen to us, then proceed to play with it anyways.

 

Well, we were at the store, and Addie had her little Hello Kitty fuzzy purse with her for the trip.  She went to get her card..and lo and behold, it was not there.  I told her if she didn't have her card, she couldn't get her cookie.  (something we reminded her when asking her not to play with it).  Well, she flipped. Like any 4 year old, she can be very loud.  Kids are not as stupid as we think they are.  Addie knows if she throws a big enough fit, Mom and Dad might acquiesce to her request.  (what can i say, i ain't a perfect dad.  there have been times that this has worked, so my bad..sometimes it's about what battles you want to win) 

 

I listen and responded empathetically, but 'held the line'.  Well, she just flipped more.  Just as the stress of having other people turn around (and the stressful thoughts that entails as your kid is melting down in a public place), I turned to a nice little grandma (who seems a bit perturbed at the noise) and said, "Wow, take a look at my little girl, isn't she loud?", then I saw another, "Would you like to see how loud she is?".  Addison was oblivious as she had a fit to throw.  She looks up, and sees me and 4 other people just looking at her.  Just.Looking.  She quiets immediately, gets up, and 'hides' behind me.  I 'mouth' "thank you" to everyone and they go on their way.

 

Was she shamed?  maybe. possibly.  probably.

 

But I have to agree with Papist, the shame is in her behavior; I was just facilitating its presentation.

 

Another story, I worked it out with a friend.. a rather large friend, that he was to pick up her and take her to the back of the church if she acted up, after a signal from me. Addie gets antsy, ok fine.  We work through that.  But she can get loud when she doesn't get what she wants.  So she wanted to balance books on the edge of the pew during the Gospel, and I said no. "DADDYYYYYYYYYYY, BUT I WAANNNNNAAAAA".  He got the 'signal' from me, grabbed and swiftly picked her up (he was sitting right behind her, as we had worked this out), took her to the back (we had a pew worked out) and said "no playing in church".  Stood her beside him, and they listened to the rest of the Gospel. It helped that Addie did not know who this guy was.  They walked back up after the homily, and Addie was alert, quiet, and attentive the rest of the Mass.  I whispered how happy i was to see her, and we hugged. Her acting up in Mass has decreased tremendously.

 

You may not be a perfect father, but you are certainly an outstanding one.

[Kateri89]

Well I'm not a parent so I'm not going to try giving parenting advice but I remember being a little kid and knowing that my parents wouldn't put up with my tantrums.  It doesn't mean I never threw one but I was punished most often in private.  Specifically, I remember misbehaving pretty much every Sunday in Mass and being taken out into the hallway by my mom who would promptly give me a smack on the behind and then wait for me to settle down before going back inside.  (By the way, this seems to have had a great effect since I'm discerning religious life and behave myself in Mass   :hehe2:  )  But each and every situation is different, parenting styles are different, and so long as by the end of the day the child still loves his parents and they still love him I'd say go with what works.

[homeschoolmom]

i'm probably a jerk alert.....

 

 

Addie was acting up in the grocery store.  They give away free cookies to kids if they have a 'cookie card'.  Well Addie had one, and boy did she use it.  She loved her cookie card, and would play with it, using it like a credit card for her little 'grocery store check out' toy.  Many, many times we would tell her not to play with it because she might lose it. (she's 4 and misplaces things).  She would listen to us, then proceed to play with it anyways.

 

Well, we were at the store, and Addie had her little Hello Kitty fuzzy purse with her for the trip.  She went to get her card..and lo and behold, it was not there.  I told her if she didn't have her card, she couldn't get her cookie.  (something we reminded her when asking her not to play with it).  Well, she flipped. Like any 4 year old, she can be very loud.  Kids are not as stupid as we think they are.  Addie knows if she throws a big enough fit, Mom and Dad might acquiesce to her request.  (what can i say, i ain't a perfect dad.  there have been times that this has worked, so my bad..sometimes it's about what battles you want to win) 

 

I listen and responded empathetically, but 'held the line'.  Well, she just flipped more.  Just as the stress of having other people turn around (and the stressful thoughts that entails as your kid is melting down in a public place), I turned to a nice little grandma (who seems a bit perturbed at the noise) and said, "Wow, take a look at my little girl, isn't she loud?", then I saw another, "Would you like to see how loud she is?".  Addison was oblivious as she had a fit to throw.  She looks up, and sees me and 4 other people just looking at her.  Just.Looking.  She quiets immediately, gets up, and 'hides' behind me.  I 'mouth' "thank you" to everyone and they go on their way.

 

Was she shamed?  maybe. possibly.  probably.

 

But I have to agree with Papist, the shame is in her behavior; I was just facilitating its presentation.

Well, in the grocery store situation, she's really bringing shame upon herself (as you said). If she realizes that her behavior has drawn attention and this embarasses her, she'll stop. Which she did. You did not shame her (even if you did sort of seek a little audience for her tantrum). She was engaging in bad behavior, she recognized it was not getting the attention she wanted, she stopped. Ta-da! Now.... if when she stopped, you had sarcastically slow-clapped and said in a loud voice-- "My daughter, ladies and gentlemen. See? This is how she behaves when she loses her cookie-card. I *told* her not to play with it, but did she listen? Nooooooo...." *That* would be shaming her on purpose to be mean.

 

In reality, the tantrum was her attempt to bring shame upon you. You just weren't having it.

[Evangetholic]

You don't think she's too young to have been attempting purposefully to bring shame? (I haven't a strong opinion, nor have I children.)

[homeschoolmom]

You don't think she's too young to have been attempting purposefully to bring shame? (I haven't a strong opinion, nor have I children.)

I don't think four it too young to have learned that "If I make a big noisy fuss, Daddy gets embarrassed and will do what I want to make me stop." I would say if she were two, she is probably throwing the tantrum out of frustration for having lost the card and thus the cookie. By four, it started out as frustration, but it quickly turns to manipulative behavior. See how quickly she's able to control herself once she sees she's not "winning"?

 

I guess she wasn't exactly trying to shame him, just embarrass him into compliance.

[MIKolbe]

You don't think she's too young to have been attempting purposefully to bring shame? (I haven't a strong opinion, nor have I children.)

 

In this scenario, there was no shame to be 'brought' to me.  Plus, at four, I am unsure she cognitively (or perhaps intellectually) understands shame. She may know it experientially, but I am unsure she is able to 'wield' it as a tool.  Plus, again, in the above scenario there was no shame to brought to my attention.

 

She wanted something.  The card is the tool by which you get your cookie when you are at the store.  If you misuse your tools, they may not work when you need them to work.  When we were telling her not to play with her card, the goal was not 'listen to Daddy or bad things happen', but 'you need to treat things with respect and use them properly'.  Me telling her no at the store was a consequence of this.  Her meltdown was HER tool to get her cookie.  It is a tool for many other things as well....lol.  I needed to show her that 'tool' is ineffective, as it is ineffective in life.

 

Peyton left a schoolbook at home, and I received a call at work.  Peyton wanted to know if I could bring it to her.  We had been having issues with things like this for a while with books, homework, forms, everything...  I had specifically told her teacher if this were to happen again NOT to give her a 'loaner', but to instead have the secretary call me.  So she did.  As it happens, Peyton previously washed my car so I gave her some $.  She was using that $ to buy herself lunch.  I suppose breadsticks w/ marinara is her fav! 

 

I told the secretary to let Peyton 'rent' the book for $1.75, (the exact amount she had for her favorite lunch).  Peyton had no lunch, but when Shea picked her up, she had some juice, grapes, and crackers waiting for her. (which we communicated to the 'adults' so no one would freak out)  When she got into the car, she wanted to know what would happen to her $1.75.  Shea said it was not her $1.75, but the school's now, as she rented a book much like we rent videos.

 

We do Peyton no favors by running up to school with anything.  All she learns is that she can't be responsible for herself and that mom and dad will bail her out.  All that does is make Shea mad, as she has other things to do, and causes an opportunity to yell at her, telling her she needs to be responsible.  But we tell her this after affirming her actions that mom and dad will bail her out. 

 

Not having my kid eat lunch was hard for me, and was a little embarrassing for her. But we had to let her fail.  I would rather she fail now and miss one school lunch, rather than getting fired at work for similar irresponsibilties when she's 28 and then she and her family might not be able to eat.

 

Also, Addie has gone to pre-school in pj's and messed up hair.  The mom-bus leaves for pre-school at a certain time.  How ready she is for the day is on her. (granted we help where needed - lay out her clothes, get breakfast ready, Shea makes sure she is ready to fix Addie's hair whenever Addie is ready for her)  But the mom-bus leaves when the mom-bus leaves.  Shea is not rushing, speeding, racing to school so Addie won't be late.  Upon getting in the car in just her pj's, Addie was worried because she had no shoes and socks on, and she was in her pj's, and her hair was 'ugly'.  She was afraid the other kids would laugh at her...she was actually more upset that her teacher would laugh at her.  Again, Shea empathized.  She had a emergency bag of shoes and socks and a brush.  She gave addie the brush so ADDIE could brush her hair on the way to school. And she put some emergency shoes and socks on.  She was still a little worried about the kids making fun of her, but shea said she loved her no matter how she looked!  After dropping Addie off and discreeting explaining the situation to the teacher, Shea went home and lined up some of Addie's toys.

 

She picked Addie up and they came home.  Addie said she looked funny in her pj's and everyone asked her why she was in her pj's.  She said bc her mommy is mean..to which shea let slide, empathized and said 'wow, sounds rough'..  They got home, and Addie looked oddly at the toys.  Shea then informed Addie that she bought those emergency shoes and socks from goodwill, and they cost $1.  She then asked how Addie was going to pay her back.  Addie took off the shoes and socks and gave them back saying they were ugly and she didn't want them.  Shea said she understood, that yes they are ugly, but it was all Shea could get for $1. She reminded Addie she wore them anyways.  She then asked Addie for $1.  Addie cried, "mommy, I no have a dollar".  It was suggested that maybe she could sell one of her toys.  Oh. the. horror.  Again, while being empathetic, Shea was trying to offer solutions. 

 

Ultimately, she sold the toy to the neighbor. (which we worked out with him), and she gave the money to Shea.  She has since found extra work to do around the house and bought her toy back..(for $1.50).

 

Again, was there shame for Addie going to school in her pj's, with ugly shoes and messed up hair?  Yeah.  But the point was not to shame her.  The point was to teach her he importance of being on time, of getting up even when we are sleepy and getting ready for the day.  Being 'on time' is important and is a positive attribute to have.  Again, we had to let her fail.  She had to experience the consequences of her actions so she can equate bad actions with bad consequences. Mr. Dad, shaking his finger, and saying "how many times do I have to tell you to get up when mom says get up" does nothing.  You wanna know how many times I need to tell you.. or how many times any parent needs to tell their child to do something??? It takes as many times as you (as a parent) choose to tell him/her.  We are learning to tell our kids once.  Hard lessons for everyone, myself included, but that is another story.

 

I just wrote up a guy for being late.  If he is late, or missed work a few more times, he's fired. period. (regardless of traffic, weather, and any emergency other than a death. That's the work policy on tardies and call offs.  He's married, 3 kids, and a wife who can't work.  As much as I might not think the policy is right or even fair; it is what it is and he agreed to it.  I think of Addie in this situation. i wonder if this guy would not have rathered gone to school in pj's, messed up hair, and ugly shoes once or twice (and feel shamed), or be late because his car honestly wouldn't start rightaway, and lose his job.  I would rather Addie fail now, when the stakes are only big in her mind (and my mind - it is hard, very hard to let your kid go to school looking like a slob, while they feel bad and want you to fix it), rather than have her be 'this guy' at my work.

[fides' Jack]

Wow, great stories!  Do you offer lessons on parenting?  

[ContemporaryCaflicCrusader]

I am glad that so many people have found that so many people that have shame still.  You know, can be shamed, in the manner you are talking.  There was a freshman at the local high school recently that called the SRO (School Resource Police Officer) a b____ to her face.  I don't know what the consequences were...  but it wasn't enough.  More of a slap on the wrist sort of a thing.  There are two kinds of shame though confidence and discipline, so to speak and we are talking discipline here.  Like I posted earlier the shamelessness of Nick Alexander performing music with no talent, God bless him (I would be cheering), and the shamelessness of the Freshman in this post.  

[Evangetholic]

In this scenario, there was no shame to be 'brought' to me.  Plus, at four, I am unsure she cognitively (or perhaps intellectually) understands shame. She may know it experientially, but I am unsure she is able to 'wield' it as a tool.  Plus, again, in the above scenario there was no shame to brought to my attention.

 

She wanted something.  The card is the tool by which you get your cookie when you are at the store.  If you misuse your tools, they may not work when you need them to work.  When we were telling her not to play with her card, the goal was not 'listen to Daddy or bad things happen', but 'you need to treat things with respect and use them properly'.  Me telling her no at the store was a consequence of this.  Her meltdown was HER tool to get her cookie.  It is a tool for many other things as well....lol.  I needed to show her that 'tool' is ineffective, as it is ineffective in life.

 

Peyton left a schoolbook at home, and I received a call at work.  Peyton wanted to know if I could bring it to her.  We had been having issues with things like this for a while with books, homework, forms, everything...  I had specifically told her teacher if this were to happen again NOT to give her a 'loaner', but to instead have the secretary call me.  So she did.  As it happens, Peyton previously washed my car so I gave her some $.  She was using that $ to buy herself lunch.  I suppose breadsticks w/ marinara is her fav! 

 

I told the secretary to let Peyton 'rent' the book for $1.75, (the exact amount she had for her favorite lunch).  Peyton had no lunch, but when Shea picked her up, she had some juice, grapes, and crackers waiting for her. (which we communicated to the 'adults' so no one would freak out)  When she got into the car, she wanted to know what would happen to her $1.75.  Shea said it was not her $1.75, but the school's now, as she rented a book much like we rent videos.

 

We do Peyton no favors by running up to school with anything.  All she learns is that she can't be responsible for herself and that mom and dad will bail her out.  All that does is make Shea mad, as she has other things to do, and causes an opportunity to yell at her, telling her she needs to be responsible.  But we tell her this after affirming her actions that mom and dad will bail her out. 

 

Not having my kid eat lunch was hard for me, and was a little embarrassing for her. But we had to let her fail.  I would rather she fail now and miss one school lunch, rather than getting fired at work for similar irresponsibilties when she's 28 and then she and her family might not be able to eat.

 

Also, Addie has gone to pre-school in pj's and messed up hair.  The mom-bus leaves for pre-school at a certain time.  How ready she is for the day is on her. (granted we help where needed - lay out her clothes, get breakfast ready, Shea makes sure she is ready to fix Addie's hair whenever Addie is ready for her)  But the mom-bus leaves when the mom-bus leaves.  Shea is not rushing, speeding, racing to school so Addie won't be late.  Upon getting in the car in just her pj's, Addie was worried because she had no shoes and socks on, and she was in her pj's, and her hair was 'ugly'.  She was afraid the other kids would laugh at her...she was actually more upset that her teacher would laugh at her.  Again, Shea empathized.  She had a emergency bag of shoes and socks and a brush.  She gave addie the brush so ADDIE could brush her hair on the way to school. And she put some emergency shoes and socks on.  She was still a little worried about the kids making fun of her, but shea said she loved her no matter how she looked!  After dropping Addie off and discreeting explaining the situation to the teacher, Shea went home and lined up some of Addie's toys.

 

She picked Addie up and they came home.  Addie said she looked funny in her pj's and everyone asked her why she was in her pj's.  She said bc her mommy is mean..to which shea let slide, empathized and said 'wow, sounds rough'..  They got home, and Addie looked oddly at the toys.  Shea then informed Addie that she bought those emergency shoes and socks from goodwill, and they cost $1.  She then asked how Addie was going to pay her back.  Addie took off the shoes and socks and gave them back saying they were ugly and she didn't want them.  Shea said she understood, that yes they are ugly, but it was all Shea could get for $1. She reminded Addie she wore them anyways.  She then asked Addie for $1.  Addie cried, "mommy, I no have a dollar".  It was suggested that maybe she could sell one of her toys.  Oh. the. horror.  Again, while being empathetic, Shea was trying to offer solutions. 

 

Ultimately, she sold the toy to the neighbor. (which we worked out with him), and she gave the money to Shea.  She has since found extra work to do around the house and bought her toy back..(for $1.50).

 

Again, was there shame for Addie going to school in her pj's, with ugly shoes and messed up hair?  Yeah.  But the point was not to shame her.  The point was to teach her he importance of being on time, of getting up even when we are sleepy and getting ready for the day.  Being 'on time' is important and is a positive attribute to have.  Again, we had to let her fail.  She had to experience the consequences of her actions so she can equate bad actions with bad consequences. Mr. Dad, shaking his finger, and saying "how many times do I have to tell you to get up when mom says get up" does nothing.  You wanna know how many times I need to tell you.. or how many times any parent needs to tell their child to do something??? It takes as many times as you (as a parent) choose to tell him/her.  We are learning to tell our kids once.  Hard lessons for everyone, myself included, but that is another story.

 

I just wrote up a guy for being late.  If he is late, or missed work a few more times, he's fired. period. (regardless of traffic, weather, and any emergency other than a death. That's the work policy on tardies and call offs.  He's married, 3 kids, and a wife who can't work.  As much as I might not think the policy is right or even fair; it is what it is and he agreed to it.  I think of Addie in this situation. i wonder if this guy would not have rathered gone to school in pj's, messed up hair, and ugly shoes once or twice (and feel shamed), or be late because his car honestly wouldn't start rightaway, and lose his job.  I would rather Addie fail now, when the stakes are only big in her mind (and my mind - it is hard, very hard to let your kid go to school looking like a slob, while they feel bad and want you to fix it), rather than have her be 'this guy' at my work.

 

You sound like a very honorable man who will raise saints. :)
 

[add]

Okay, so how do you get a 16 yo to clean her room and not be crabby ?

[GeorgiiMichael]

Sometimes my mind plays weird tricks on me and I thought this thread title said, "Chicken children should be shamed"

 

Carry on.

[MIKolbe]

Okay, so how do you get a 16 yo to clean her room and not be crabby ?

tell them you'll take care of it....

 

 

then hire someone to clean it and have the kid pay for it

 

or

 

clean it yourself.  if stuff is on the floor, throw it away.. how important can it be if it's on the floor. or give it to good will, and she can buy it back provided she pays you for gas to and from.

 

(they will learn what "Don't worry, I'll take care of it" means)

 

 

Maybe you can have organize a movie nite complete with her fav movie and dinner.  Involve the whole family, but make sure she helps plan it and gets what she wants in terms of movie, food, soda.. etc.  Get everything ready.  Before the evening starts, take her aside and ask her if her room is clean..as an off-handed comment/question.  When she says no, you might want to feel really sad for her; as only people with clean rooms were participating tonight.  Tell her you really hope she can participate next time.

 

or

 

maybe you are just really run down by having to remind her ALL the time, especially with all the fighting it takes.   it's called an 'energy drain'.  How is she going to refill your energy? This works better the more they depend on your for rides, etc.  I mean, heck, maybe you are just too drained to take her to her friends?  Maybe she can clean her room, and then do some dusting to refill your energy. 

 

The key is to be empathetic and loving, but have logical consequences.  Her not having a clean room needs to be HER problem, not yours. As long as you treat it as YOUR problem, she's really not going to care or may see it as a favor to you for cleaning it.

 

 

As for being crabby, be empathetic. " I hate cleaning too."   It's not a parent's job to make things fun.  With alot of the crabbiness we try to be 'braindead'.  Saying the same thing over,

 

I DONT WANNA CLEAN MY ROOM

 

"i know' (said honestly, empathetically and w/o sarcasm)

 

IT IS SO STUPID

 

'i know'

 

IT IS SUCH A WASTE OF TIME, IT'S JUST GOING TO GET MESSY AGAIN.

 

'i know'

 

 

so on and so forth....

 

Peyton got mad at us going brain dead once, and said she was moving out.. to which we responded, "we'll love you no matter where you live".  This threw her for a loop.  She was expecting us to say, "You're not going anywhere put to your room!!", or something so she had the power.  So, we gave her the power, but affirmed it with love.  In giving the power to her, we showed we had the power to give her power. (if that makes sense) 

 

All the crabbiness and complaining and back talk is a way to agrue out of things or stress you out to the point you give up in one way or another.  It is a power struggle.  Go braindead.  They will find complaining and being crabby doesn't work and they do not have that power over you.

 

That said, if you see them doing some work, offer to help..and help.  There is nothing wrong with trying to make cleaning a more positive experience.  They will learn that if you see them doing work, even without having to be reminded, they get it done faster and work less.  Then you have a 16 year old cleaning their room on their own. lol

 

Or, give them a time table.. "the trash needs to be taken out every week by 8pm on Wednesday" tell them they can do it whenever they want as long as the timetable is met.  Put the power in their hands and give them choices that are first acceptable to you.  ie... you want them to go to bed at 9pm, but you KNOW it will be a fight to get them off the Wii.  So.. at 8:45 ask them, "you want to go to bed now, or take 15 minutes to finish your game and then go to bed?" Both choices are cool with you, but the 'power' is with them.

 

Sorry, Shea and I took some really cool classes on this and I totally fell in love with it.

 

lololol