Evangelicals Evangelizing What Exactly!?!

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='May 27 2004, 02:07 AM'] Thank you, finally someone sees it the Old way of the Church. If Protestants, Fundamentalists are Christians, that opens up the gate to Ana-Baptists, Arians, Arius', Schismatics etc. [/quote]
Hi Paul,

That's not the "Old Way" of the Church. The Catholic Church never taught that non-Catholics who believed in the Trinity were non-Christian. Perhaps some Catholics thought that, just as some Catholics were anti-Semitic, but that does not mean that the Catholic Church was ever anti-Semitic.

The Church recognizes the Trinitarian water baptism of non-Catholic Christians as being valid, and St. Augustine denounced Donatism -- i.e., the [b]heresy[/b] of rebaptizing converts to the Catholic Church. If these baptized people weren't Christian, they'd need to be baptized. But for Donatism to be a heresy, which it is, those formerly baptized must be Christians; if they weren't, they'd need to be baptized. And St. Augustine wrote against doing so again.

Take care,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

For the record, I think that 1 Tim. 2:9 denounces immodesty. Obviously, it wouldn't be right if a woman was more concerned about her appearance during Mass than she'd be about the Mass itself. I also think it denounces excess in dress. St. Paul was rightly concerned about the souls of Christian men who could easily be lead astray by immodestly dressed women. But to say that this passage bans all jewelry is a bit much -- and is false to boot.

God bless,

Jennifer

[Mickey's_Girl]

BeenaBobba, you are BRILLIANT! I agree with all of your posts here.

I've always thought the no-pants interpretation of that verse was absurd. After all, to modern eyes, the clothes that men in Bible times wore look like DRESSES to me! I'd have a hard time differentiating between male and female attire back then.

This whole topic (no pants, no pearls), by the way, is a good argument for the importance of Tradition. It helps us interpret the Bible properly, instead of all literally or picking-and-choosing.

MG

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='May 27 2004, 06:50 PM'] Likos,
I think alot of folks feel that many Pre VII werent crazy about all the changes.
Many a Catholic left as a result of VaticanII.


Peace. [/quote]
this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. the CATHOLICS that don't accept VII...like Mel Gibson, being an ultraconservative catholic that don't accept VII...

thats what I'm talking about...

[quote]Hi the lumberjack,

See, I don't see why they're against drinking because Jesus drank. Obviously, Jesus wasn't a sinner. I also don't see why they're against modest dancing. Dancing is a mode of self-expression; it is a form of art, just as painting is a form of art. There can be immodest paintings, but that doesn't mean that painting is immoral. I'd say the same is true of modest dancing. It's excesses in drinking and gambling that are sinful.

God bless,

Jennifer[/quote]

Jennifer, I feel what you're saying, really...but I also kinda understand why they wouldn't let it happen...to let no chance of sin to enter. I know that it may be a poor way of doing it...in essence, its like a parent sheltering their children...and yes, I'm fully aware of the possible outcome of that too...

but if they think its the best way to keep themselves from the world and its traps....so be it...but I probly won't fellowship with them, cuz they'd say I'm of the devil...oh well.

God bless.

Carlos

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 28 2004, 01:05 AM'] this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. the CATHOLICS that don't accept VII...like Mel Gibson, being an ultraconservative catholic that don't accept VII...

thats what I'm talking about...
[/quote]
mel gibson is catholic. he has said so himself. he just perfers mass the way it was before it was changed in VII. (in latin, etc)

their different orders (so to speak), but both are valid and both are following the Church.

now if you refuse to except what the Catholic Church has called as valid in VII, that is where you run into trouble.

i hope i explained that right.

[MorphRC]

Pax Iesus BeenaBobba

Ive looked throughout the Church Fathers, Catholic quotes, Salvific Quotes, Statements, Creeds and none say Heretics are Christian, they call them heretics and thats it. Yes I know to be a heretic you need to be baptized and I also know that a heretic can give a valid baptism when neccessary, but still you cant deny the Church, the Pope, The Tradition, and half of Scripture and still be a Christian, a Catholic Christian sums it up well in Greek, Katholos = According to the whole, how can you be a Christian and not follow the whole? Thats like me following the 5 tenets of Islam, it doesnt make me Muslim, until I say the Creed, the same use to apply for the Church, but with Sacraments instead of a 2 line Creed.

Pax Iesus.
Paul.

Edited May 28, 2004 by MorphRC

[littleflower+JMJ]

a heretic is someone who knows the perfect truth and rejects it, then they cease to be catholic.

a baptized christian is someone who only knows imperfect truth, half-truth, through no fault of their own but of the errors that continued since the reformation. thus, they do [b]not[/b] have the full truth, but are still recognized.

its with their baptism, they make up the body of believers as well.

to be fully in Truth, one must be Catholic, since that is where it is alone found. complete and whole.

pax christi.

+JMJ+

[jasJis]

Evangelicals, and Catholics, both may believe they are leading people closer to Christ. When we go in opposite directions, one of us is wrong. When we go in the same direction, both of us are right.

All Belivers who are validly baptised (in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are members of the Church and are our Siblings in Christ. We seperate ourselves from the Church through ignorance and through sin. Just like mortal and venial sins, there is seperation by minor reasons, and major reasons. Heretics can seperate themselves with mortal sin which requres knowledge, intent of will. If they know better and still reject the Church, that's one thing. But not knowing any better is an entirely different matter.



mulls,
On the drinking thing. It's not for everybody, but Jesus had some words for this. (paraphrased): [i]'If your leg causes Sin, cut it off. It's better to enter Heaven with one leg then to go to Hell with both[/i].' At the root is the avoidance of the near occasion of Sin.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='May 28 2004, 03:35 AM'] Pax Iesus BeenaBobba

Ive looked throughout the Church Fathers, Catholic quotes, Salvific Quotes, Statements, Creeds and none say Heretics are Christian, they call them heretics and thats it. Yes I know to be a heretic you need to be baptized and I also know that a heretic can give a valid baptism when neccessary, but still you cant deny the Church, the Pope, The Tradition, and half of Scripture and still be a Christian, a Catholic Christian sums it up well in Greek, Katholos = According to the whole, how can you be a Christian and not follow the whole? Thats like me following the 5 tenets of Islam, it doesnt make me Muslim, until I say the Creed, the same use to apply for the Church, but with Sacraments instead of a 2 line Creed.

Pax Iesus.
Paul. [/quote]
THis is directly from the Catechism, maybe you missed it:

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

Edited May 28, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[MorphRC]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 29 2004, 01:21 AM'] THis is directly from the Catechism, maybe you missed it:

The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians

CCC 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82 [/quote]
Pax Iesus

I never denied that, if you read my previous statement a few posts up you would have seen that. Im talking about [i]after baptism[/i], when they follow heresies like the Ana-Baptists, Cathars, Albegieriums, Iconalists, or are these Christians to? This is what Im getting at, whether or not you know, but you willing follow heresy and do not bother to check or research, or fuse to stay in utter ignorance, then how can you be Christian?

You realize, I can leave the Church and become a Cathar and Ill still be Christian, even though I deny the basic tenets of Christianity, perhaps this is why so many people are converting away from the Church, when I told my mum what I read about heretics and Christians a year ago, she said, she never heard or was taught that during her childhood, but that Catholics can only be Christians since they hold everything that was set forth, and theres no inbetween. Of course this was Pre-V2.

Pax Iesus
Paul.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Mickey's_Girl' date='May 28 2004, 02:55 AM'] BeenaBobba, you are BRILLIANT!  I agree with all of your posts here.
[/quote]
Aww, shucks. Thanks!

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='MorphRC' date='May 28 2004, 03:35 AM'] Pax Iesus BeenaBobba

Ive looked throughout the Church Fathers, Catholic quotes, Salvific Quotes, Statements, Creeds and none say Heretics are Christian, they call them heretics and thats it.

[/quote]
Hi Paul,

You say that the Church Fathers called these non-Catholics heretics, which is true. But, they do not say whether or not these heretics are or aren't Christians. It is up to the Church to decide that, and the Church has decided, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that these people are Christians. The irony is that those who deny this are adhering to an opinion that goes against the teaching of the Catholic Church, which can be said is a heretical opinion. No one can properly interpret the teachings of the Bible and the Church Fathers apart from the Catholic Church.

[quote]Yes I know to be a heretic you need to be baptized and I also know that a heretic can give a valid baptism when neccessary, but still you cant deny the Church, the Pope, The Tradition, and half of Scripture and still be a Christian, a Catholic Christian sums it up well in Greek, Katholos = According to the whole, how can you be a Christian and not follow the whole? Thats like me following the 5 tenets of Islam, it doesnt make me Muslim, until I say the Creed, the same use to apply for the Church, but with Sacraments instead of a 2 line Creed.[/quote]

You seem to disregard the fact that many present day Protestants aren't active heretics. Yes, they adhere to heretical beliefs, but many of them did not leave the Church (as Luther did, for example. Luther would be an example of an active heretic). Non-Catholic Christians are not in the fullness of truth, but why throw the baby out with the bath water? Non-Catholic Christians adhere to some truth -- some of them more than others. Orthodox Christians, for example, are not in the fullness of truth, yet they possess Apostolic Succession and a valid Eucharist. We share many of our beliefs with them. To say that the Orthodox are completely false would be false. If non-Catholic Trinitarian water baptisms are valid, then it'd follow that those who administer baptism apart from the Catholic Church recognize some truth. They believe in Jesus, after all, and profess Him as God. Obviously, that's not false. If they believe in the Trinity (and therefore, if they believe in Jesus Christ), what can they be called [i]but Christians[/i]?

Take care,

Jennifer