Words Matter. Velatio Should Not Be Hijacked By Mantilla-ters Or Hat-t

[Apotheoun]

So hang on, if we're gonna use the bible, let's remember first of all that even the devil (!) quotes the bible where considered applicable. I'm just sayin', just because it's in "the Bible", doesn't mean it necessarily applies in this or any occasion. What does the Church say? And thank you.

Matthew 4:1 (New International Version)

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted^[a] by the devil. ² After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. ³ The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

 

 

 

The text of First Corinthians 11 is hardly obscure in its plain meaning, which is simply that women should wear a veil during the liturgical synaxis, and so the devil has nothing to do with this issue.   :hehe2:

[Apotheoun]

Why not?  A "call from God" often denotes a vocation, like, say, a Church vocation as in States of LIFE.  

The word "often" does not mean "always." Your whole argument was undermined by the first sentence in your own post. 

[EmilyAnn]

I love this thread! So many interesting interpretations!

 

Read this and thought, "wow! All my 'traditional latin Mass' friends call them "mantillas!" Mostly because they don't consider themselves as "Consecrated to God" like Nuns would be. Or as, in this case, Consecrated Virgins...

 

How do you propose to translate "velatio" to English and retain its significance if you begin using the word "veiling" against the Church's lex orandi tradition? Isn't it awkward for a Consecrated virgin to be asked what does velatio mean and she says," Well, it means veiling  of virgins and religious, but these days some modernists use the word veiling to denote the abrogated practice of laywomen wearing habadashery in church."

So we don't use veiling. we use the more elite term velatio because some modernists wanted to change our theological vocabulary.

 

On a side note, as a teenager many years ago, I went to a Mass celebrated at a wealthy Traditional Catholic family home where the daughters of the family handed out disposable Kleenexes for the heads of girls who did not have the lace doilies. I was insulted at the mere suggestion of it;  I was the ONLY woman who refused to wear a "disposable snot rag" at Our Lord's death (the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!) What a shame that Our Lord, knowing all things, did NOT correct Mary Magdalen for her failure to wear the proper headdress, which I know was a prostitute's way of selling herself, ie: to bare her head! What a shame that He did not take this as seriously as some others seem to be doing!

 

Would you wear a Kleenex when meeting the President? Wouldn't that be a horrible insult? Would you make the King of Saudi Arabia wear a Kleenex or would you think that what a Kleenex stands for is horribly degrading for a human being?

Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. 

[Winchester]

 

 

Would you wear a Kleenex when meeting the President? Wouldn't that be a horrible insult? 

I'd wear a T-shirt and some jeans. The president can go to hell. Just a man, and it's disturbing how people use him as an example of some lofty position. Politicians are thugs.

 

[EmilyAnn]

What some people in this thread seem to find a shocking concept is that words are not bound to one meaning. One word can have multiple meanings and uses in different contexts. 

 

As a married woman with children, I feel it is important to teach my children that veiling is for those who are called to that officially by the Church and that covering is for those who feel like making that decision as a fashion statement! You know, it strikes me as odd that people vehemently arguing for covering do so because they claim that all holy things are veiled.  Why is it that holy things are veiled?  has any one noticed that the veiling is done by someone else and not by the person themselves? Maybe veiling does say that there is something holy. Something sacred.  And the Rite of Consecration gives us a clue.  The virgin is made a "sacred person".

 

Maybe if we are called to holiness as lay persons, maybe we shouldn't call it what it isn't.

 

Perhaps we should make it clear what holiness really consists in. The CDF has already told us that customs like covering heads is no longer in force.  Therefore it doesn't make us more holy to wear coverings.

 

The choice to wear a head covering is not a fashion statement and it is insulting for you to assume that it is. That choice is between that person and the Lord, and you have no right to judge them for it just as they have no right to judge you for not. Maybe some women who cover their heads take a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but the vast majority of women do not and you should not judge them on the minority.

 

Head covering is not compulsory. I’m not saying that everyone, or even anyone should cover their head. One of the most beautiful things about the Catholic Church is that it allows us to express our devotion and our spirituality in different ways. Take the Brown Scapular for example. It is a devotion and a personal choice, and choosing it for oneself in no way says that everyone should do it. Head covering is the same, it is a personal devotion that one can chose to follow or not. That choice is up to you, and we should respect one another's free choice of devotional practices.

 

But if you are so threatened by someone else’s personal choices that you feel the need to attack them, then perhaps you should spend less time looking at others and think about yourself for a minute.

Edited March 6, 2013 by EmilyAnn

[Amppax]

freudianslippers, welcome to Phatmass! Debate table really isn't the best place to start posting on Phatmass, as you might be able to tell.  Typically a bit more heated and opinionated in here then elsewhere on the Phorum. Also, it's considered impolite according to forum etiquette to join and say the sort of things you have about longtime members without really joining the community.  I'd suggest posting a bit in Open Mic or elsewhere, and try to get to know us.  

 

 

 I was insulted at the mere suggestion of it;  I was the ONLY woman who refused to wear a "disposable snot rag" at Our Lord's death (the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!)

 

Also, the Mass isn't a re-sacrificing of Christ.  I'm not positive that's what you're trying to imply but it seems like it.  It's a participation in the once for all sacrifice on Calvary (see Hebrews 10:10). 

 

[Selah]

 "disposable snot rag" 

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you post stuff like this?

Edited March 6, 2013 by Selah

[Winchester]

Funny thing about symbols is they don't actually possess meaning of themselves. Let God worry about the intent of the people wearing disposable snot rags.

[Autumn Dusk]

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you post stuff like this?

 

This may have been a catch of the fiddler....dust has been known to change worlds like floopy, fart, slut, pants and disposable snot rags

[Archaeology cat]

False. I do not wear my chapel veil/mantilla/veil for a fasion statement. That was never a reason for me and it never will be. What you are insinuating is very insulting.

Nobody said that anybody is more holy for wearing chapel veils. I don't think I'm holier than anyone else. My spiritual director does not wear a veil and I know she is holier than me. I have every right to wear my chapel veil in the presence of the Eucharistic God and frankly I'm peeved that you're being so negative about my devotion. Nobody here is saying that wearing a veil is mandatory or that it makes someone holier than others. 

  

What some people in this thread seem to find a shocking concept is that words are not bound to one meaning. One word can have multiple meanings and uses in different contexts. 
 

 
The choice to wear a head covering is not a fashion statement and it is insulting for you to assume that it is. That choice is between that person and the Lord, and you have no right to judge them for it just as they have no right to judge you for not. Maybe some women who cover their heads take a "holier-than-thou" attitude, but the vast majority of women do not and you should not judge them on the minority.
 
Head covering is not compulsory. I’m not saying that everyone, or even anyone should cover their head. One of the most beautiful things about the Catholic Church is that it allows us to express our devotion and our spirituality in different ways. Take the Brown Scapular for example. It is a devotion and a personal choice, and choosing it for oneself in no way says that everyone should do it. Head covering is the same, it is a personal devotion that one can chose to follow or not. That choice is up to you, and we should respect one another's free choice of devotional practices.
 
But if you are so threatened by someone else’s personal choices that you feel the need to attack them, then perhaps you should spend less time looking at others and think about yourself for a minute.

Amen! To both of you!

[Winchester]

This thread gave me cancer.