Sexism And The Bible--fork

[Evangetholic]

But we're not, I'm not anyway, talking about in the secular/political sphere. Not the "rights of a citizen," but the "duties of a Christian." In the West there have been plenty of women who exercised secular authority, usually dismissed because they inherited it, but so did their male counterparts.

I don't really like the word equal. I'll concede it if we can move on.

[Evangetholic]

And I forgot Abbesses there were territorial abbesses who exercised similar authority in things temporal as well as spiritual (not ordained of course) until the dissolution of Sainte-Empire by Napoleon at the start of the 1800's--they appointed priests with their territory like a bishop, built churches, raised armies for Christendom's sill internal wars, all they could not do was that which was explicitly priestly. They were even given the same symbols of office as Bishops, but did not wear them of course.

[Evangetholic]

"sill" should be "silly"

[Lilllabettt]

Also, FYI, if something isn't the same than it is by definition not equal. That's what equal means.

 

Equal does not mean the same, unless you are talking about math. If by equal you mean "fair," equal does not mean the same. We cover this over and over again in first grade. I am legally mandated to provide equitable instruction to all students. This means that I must give many of them extra interventions, work modifications, behavior plans, etc. This is called differentiation. I teach my students what "fair" means with this lesson: http://saylorslog.blogspot.com/2011/08/differentiation.html

[Basilisa Marie]

I only see problems when people exploit what the bible says to perpetuate harmful gender stereotypes and to subjugate women. 

 

Example: The Bible says women find their greatest dignity in being mothers.

 

Okay, so, you can interpret that in a bunch of ways.  One would be to talk about biological motherhood and spiritual motherhood, and then do some theology about what spiritual motherhood means.  Then you do some theology about the equal (but different) parallel to biological fatherhood and spiritual fatherhood.  

 

Another way you can interpret that passage is to mean that women should only be biological mothers.  Or nuns.  That's it.  And that biological mothers should stay at home and keep house.  Or not let women do theology about biological motherhood and spiritual motherhood.  Or ignore women who do theology on motherhood in favor of exclusively male-written theology of motherhood.  Or talk about spiritual fatherhood ad-nauseum but have next to nothing about what spiritual motherhood means.  Or talk about biological motherhood ad nauseum and have next to nothing about biological fatherhood.  Everything in this paragraph is problematic.  

 

So while Hasan might be wrong to say that the Bible is inherently sexist (depending on what you mean by sexist), he's right in his implicit assertion that people use the bible in sexist ways. 

[Apotheoun]

. . . Or talk about spiritual fatherhood ad-nauseum but have next to nothing about what spiritual motherhood means.

This is where Holy Orthodoxy, with its married presbyterate, brings a balance that is sometimes missing from Roman Catholic parish life, because just as the presbyter is the spiritual father of the parish he serves, so too his wife is the spiritual mother (Russian: matushka; Ukrainian: panimatushka) and presbytera (Arabic: khouria; Serbian: papadiya) of the parish.

[Evangetholic]

Well Holy Orthodox Catholicity doesn't allow married priests in her Roman rite. This is not a function of woman's "lowliness," but of man's distractability.

[Apotheoun]

Well Holy Orthodox Catholicity doesn't allow married priests in her Roman rite. This is not a function of woman's "lowliness," but of man's distractability.

Actually the Roman Church does allow for married presbyters on a case by case basis within its own jurisdiction.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Evangetholic]

It's not on a case by case basis, it requires a dispensation from Holy Orthodox Catholicity's Roman rite's normative rule. 

[Apotheoun]

It's not on a case by case basis, it requires a dispensation from Holy Orthodox Catholicity's Roman rite's normative rule. 

Yeah, that is what a "dispensation" involves, a dispensatin from the general norm of the Roman Church for its own jurisdiction is only given on a case by case basis. It is normally given to clergy who convert from Protestant denominations.

[Papist]

If your interpretation is the Bible is sexist, it is you that is sexist, not the Bible.

[Evangetholic]

Yeah, that is what a "dispensation" involves, a dispensatin from the general norm of the Roman Church for its own jurisdiction is only given on a case by case basis. It is normally given to clergy who convert from Protestant denominations.

 

I think "case by case" overstates it.

[Apotheoun]

I think "case by case" overstates it.

I think you are reading too much into the phrase. The Roman authorities give dispensations to the law of clerical celibacy on a case by case basis, that is, they examine a particular case and either give a dispensation or not.

[Basilisa Marie]

This is where Holy Orthodoxy, with its married presbyterate, brings a balance that is sometimes missing from Roman Catholic parish life, because just as the presbyter is the spiritual father of the parish he serves, so too his wife is the spiritual mother (Russian: matushka; Ukrainian: panimatushka) and presbytera (Arabic: khouria; Serbian: papadiya) of the parish.

 

DUDE! I did not know this.  This is most excellent.  

[Evangetholic]

I think you are reading too much into the phrase. The Roman authorities give dispensations to the law of clerical celibacy on a case by case basis, that is, they examine a particular case and either give a dispensation or not.

 

When it was a standalone phrase I think it made married priests sound more common and less utterly extraordinary of an occurance than they are, in Holy Orthodox Catholicity's Roman rite.