Seeking Advice: Practices At A Particular Church

[Basilisa Marie]

There are so many bigger, more important things than holding hands during the Our Father. If that's the only problem, I personally find it a rather ridiculous thing to pull your kids out of school over.  

 

I also don't think one parent complaint is going to change the practice in the church.  That being said, if it's a really big deal to the parents, I'd first talk to the teacher, and let her or him know that their kid feels uncomfortable holding hands during the Our Father, and since it's not a required liturgical posture (i.e. it's not in any missal ever), they'd prefer that the kid was allowed to quietly fold his hands instead of holding hands.  If the teacher refuses, then go to the priest.  The teacher shouldn't be forcing the kid to hold hands during the Our Father, but it's not something to go to the priest over unless you can't resolve it between parents and teacher.  

 

Edit: Also - I think it's also important to make sure the authority of the teacher isn't being undermined in the mind of the kid.  It wouldn't be good for the kid to think that anytime the teacher does something he or she doesn't like he can go to mom and dad and get the teacher overruled.  

Edited March 6, 2013 by Basilisa Marie

[Autumn Dusk]

I can't believe so many people are against children holding hands in general.  I don't get it.

 

Children should be allowed to show affection at will, and I think they don't do it enough these days.  HOWEVER  forcing children to hold hands against their will breaks just about every rule of good teaching and probably some "protecting God's children" rules, too.

[StMichael]

This isn't an issue of affection or dislike for their classmates, etc. This is about being forced to hold hands during the Our Father which is not prescribed. It is not mandated by Rome and is an addition to the mass that is against Canon law.

 

Furthermore, the children are being raised Roman Catholic, in practice as well as word. This is not instilling "universal" whatsoever as you have 2 churches acting very differently, one respectful and solemn, the other like a party.

 

To witness this is to believe you are not at a Catholic Church.

 

The Priest stands behind the altar holding hands with some 4 altar servers. All facing forward. The congregants are encouraged to stand in the aisle and hold hands during the prayer.

 

Then at the conclusion, in unison, these embraced hands are lifted in the air. 

 

I will not attend a Church that is so disobedient. And have witnessed this abuse in the West far too much, including a deacon presiding over the Mass while the Priests sat with the congregants and this guy self-communicated. I could go on. Thankfully, I found other Churches that have said to the congregants not to hold hands, etc. 

 

While I bite my lip on this one, the parents don't know what to do. And quite frankly it shouldn't be this difficult, nor dismissed as folly, but will share some of your thoughts with them and hope that some resolution can be found.

 

(EDIT) And thank you all for chiming in.

 

 

Children should be allowed to show affection at will, and I think they don't do it enough these days.  HOWEVER  forcing children to hold hands against their will breaks just about every rule of good teaching and probably some "protecting God's children" rules, too.

 

Edited March 6, 2013 by StMichael

[Autumn Dusk]

This isn't an issue of affection or dislike for their classmates, etc. This is about being forced to hold hands during the Our Father which is not prescribed. It is not mandated by Rome and is an addition to the mass that is against Canon law.

 

Furthermore, the children are being raised Roman Catholic, in practice as well as word. This is not instilling "universal" whatsoever as you have 2 churches acting very differently, one respectful and solemn, the other like a party.

 

To witness this is to believe you are not at a Catholic Church.

 

The Priest stands behind the altar holding hands with some 4 altar servers. All facing forward. The congregants are encouraged to stand in the aisle and hold hands during the prayer.

 

Then at the conclusion, in unison, these embraced hands are lifted in the air. 

 

I will not attend a Church that is so disobedient. And have witnessed this abuse in the West far too much, including a deacon presiding over the Mass while the Priests sat with the congregants and this guy self-communicated. I could go on. Thankfully, I found other Churches that have said to the congregants not to hold hands, etc. 

 

While I bite my lip on this one, the parents don't know what to do. And quite frankly it shouldn't be this difficult, nor dismissed as folly, but will share some of your thoughts with them and hope that some resolution can be found.

 

(EDIT) And thank you all for chiming in.

 

 

You may not want to go, but all things considered holding hands during the Our Father, even if the priest does is NOT the end of the world.

 

What IS of concern to most of us is the disregard the teachers are giving to the children by having them hold hands.  If, as a first grader, I did something at school that my parent didn't want for a religious reason...and that I, as a child also felt uncomfortable with, then the instructor should respect that.  Their are jewish, athiest and protestant children in my friend's daughter's Catholic school.  They are respectful but often choose to sit quietly rather than kneel.  The church respect that they are a different religion and doesn't force them into positions that they are not comfortable with EVEN IF IT IS RUBRICS.

 

Not only that, but they often arrange the students boy-girl to avoid problems.  I would of died before holding hands with a boy as a 1st grader

[StMichael]

Autumn, none of this might be end of the world, but this starts with the Pastor, otherwise why else would 1st grade, 2nd grade teachers see the need to indoctrinate these children into a way not the way of the Church.

 

This starts at the top, not the bottom and if it were me, I would simply have a talk with the Pastor as to where is this directive coming from with documentation showing otherwise. 

 

I don't believe these children, practicing Catholics, need to be treated as if they were protestants or jewish, etc. They are Roman Catholic and should not feel shunned in their own Church because the Church they are in decides to change the Mass without any approval or directive by Rome.

 

Regardless, will share all thoughts with the parents and hope they can find a way to fix this.

 

 

You may not want to go, but all things considered holding hands during the Our Father, even if the priest does is NOT the end of the world.

 

What IS of concern to most of us is the disregard the teachers are giving to the children by having them hold hands.  If, as a first grader, I did something at school that my parent didn't want for a religious reason...and that I, as a child also felt uncomfortable with, then the instructor should respect that.  Their are jewish, athiest and protestant children in my friend's daughter's Catholic school.  They are respectful but often choose to sit quietly rather than kneel.  The church respect that they are a different religion and doesn't force them into positions that they are not comfortable with EVEN IF IT IS RUBRICS.

 

Not only that, but they often arrange the students boy-girl to avoid problems.  I would of died before holding hands with a boy as a 1st grader

 

[Autumn Dusk]

Autumn, none of this might be end of the world, but this starts with the Pastor, otherwise why else would 1st grade, 2nd grade teachers see the need to indoctrinate these children into a way not the way of the Church.

 

This starts at the top, not the bottom and if it were me, I would simply have a talk with the Pastor as to where is this directive coming from with documentation showing otherwise. 

 

I don't believe these children, practicing Catholics, need to be treated as if they were protestants or jewish, etc. They are Roman Catholic and should not feel shunned in their own Church because the Church they are in decides to change the Mass without any approval or directive by Rome.

 

Regardless, will share all thoughts with the parents and hope they can find a way to fix this.

 

 

Millitant teachers are a different problem than a lax priest.  My feelings (and others) is that you are confusing two things.  

 

Issue 1-  that the students are forced by a teacher to hold hands least they be publicly repremanded

 

Issue 2- the priest is displaying hand-holding behavior from the altar.

 

 

Issuse one has serious ramifications socitally.  It's well know that blanket obedience in physical matters is a "key" that abusers use, as well as public shame.  I'm NOT saying the teachers are being abusive, but there is a HUGE control issue.  We have standard teaching practices as well as protecting God's chidren document in the hundreds that decries this sort of behavior.

[franciscanheart]

The family attends, as a family, Church every Sunday. The children are not seeking to hold hands, but when they are at mass on Friday in their school, which is not with the parents, their teachers are forcing them to hold hands.
 
The children have been corrected by the teacher to do so, in a public way.
 
The Priest stands behind the altar holding hands with the altar servers and encourages standing in the aisle to hold hands. 
 
It has become an issue for the family and just seeing what I can offer them other than arming themselves with information on the mass and speak with the Pastor.

Ah, my bad. Right on. Good on you. They definitely need to have a chat with the pastor and school administrators. Good luck!

[StMichael]

I'm baffled why you insist on making this about me or that I am somewhat confused.

 

The Pastor tells his flock to hold hands to the point of breaking the aisle. It is the Pastor who is instructing his teachers to "teach" the children what to do at Mass. The teachers are made responsible to indoctrinate these children into the way the PASTOR wants it. 6, 7, 8 yr olds will certainly be shamed for talking during Mass and this is an extension of that.

 

Taking this to a level of child abuse, etc. is not where the concern lies, nor is that an issue. It is about being forced to practice the faith in a disobedient manner and against what the Parents want.

 

Again, thanks for the insight.

 

 

 

Millitant teachers are a different problem than a lax priest.  My feelings (and others) is that you are confusing two things.  

 

Issue 1-  that the students are forced by a teacher to hold hands least they be publicly repremanded

 

Issue 2- the priest is displaying hand-holding behavior from the altar.

 

 

Issuse one has serious ramifications socitally.  It's well know that blanket obedience in physical matters is a "key" that abusers use, as well as public shame.  I'm NOT saying the teachers are being abusive, but there is a HUGE control issue.  We have standard teaching practices as well as protecting God's chidren document in the hundreds that decries this sort of behavior.

 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Prayers for you and your friends, StMichael. It's so hard to deal with pastors that condone or encourage liturgical abuses. :( Saint Michael the archangel, defend us in this battle!

[Debra Little]

everyone holds hands during the Our Father except the priest.

[franciscanheart]

everyone holds hands during the Our Father except the priest.

:huh: Not at my parish.

[Nihil Obstat]

That was true of all the Novus-Ordo-only parishes I attended before 'making the switch'. Like I have said before, my diocese is not very good liturgically.

[Debra Little]

:huh: Not at my parish.

 

what is a Novus Ordo parish?     i have been a member of my parish since "89 and

at Mass everyone has held hands during the Our Father.    i didn't like it.  made me

feel uncomfortable.  but that's how it was. 

[Debra Little]

That was true of all the Novus-Ordo-only parishes I attended before 'making the switch'. Like I have said before, my diocese is not very good liturgically.

 

mine either. 

[BG45]

That was true of all the Novus-Ordo-only parishes I attended before 'making the switch'. Like I have said before, my diocese is not very good liturgically.

 

About 50/50 on each parish I've attended.  Usually the hand holding is discouraged by the priest as well.