Socrates Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Your comments make you look like you've only watched a few minutes of the series. Well, I'm sure that the miracle of the bread turning into the body and blood of Jesus Christ at your mass resembles an overly produced over the top CGI production, complete with bloody effects, eyeliner and fake beards, but at the mass I attend, Jesus keeps it a bit more humble. The point of my comments was not to make a general defense of the series (which I have not seen enough of to either praise of condemn), but with your particular criticisms of the depictions of miraculous acts of God described in the Bible, stating that they should have been portrayed as simple natural occurrences, rather than as "fantastic" miracles. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is described in Genesis thus: "Into Segor Lot entered as the sun rose over the earth; and thereupon the Lord rained down brimstone and fire out of heaven, the Lord’s dwelling-place, and overthrew these cities, with all the plain about them, and all those who dwelt there, and all that grew from their soil." ~ Genesis 19:23-25 Fire and brimstone are described as falling directly out of heaven, and there is no mention of a volcano. (A meteorite or such might make a better "natural" explanation). The walls of water on either side in the crossing of the Red Sea is likewise described in Exodus: "So the Israelites went through the midst of the sea dry-shod, with its waters towering up like a wall to right and left." ~ Exodus 14:22 This is also the way the crossing of the Red Sea has always traditionally been understood and depicted in art. Would you criticize the Bible itself as being too "fantastical" and over-the-top? It seems that your real issue in these instances isn't just with the History Channel show, but with the source Book. The Church has traditionally understood such Biblical events to be miraculous occurrences, rather than having a simple natural explanation, and if God can work miracles such as the bodily resurrection of Christ from the dead, and ascension into Heaven, the parting the Red Sea and raining fire from heaven are certainly not beyond His ability. The attempt to "explain away" most Biblical miracles as having natural or human causes, or else being mere fables or metaphors is a modernist invention, and not one that I think should be uncritically embraced by Catholics. That's my issue here. Your point about the Eucharist is a complete non sequitor. The miracle of the Eucharist is indeed hidden to the senses, but most of the miracles recorded in the Bible were not, and some were performed specifically to manifest and make known God's power and glory (as are most of the Old Testament miracles). And a mass and a tv or movie production are not the same thing. Of course a tv show is fake, but I do not think using costumes, props, and special effects to dramatize a Biblical story is in itself wrong. The History Channel series may well be crap, but I don't think a modernist revisionist dramatization of the Bible downplaying God's miracles would be any kind of improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 The point of my comments was not to make a general defense of the series (which I have not seen enough of to either praise of condemn), but with your particular criticisms of the depictions of miraculous acts of God described in the Bible, stating that they should have been portrayed as simple natural occurrences, rather than as "fantastic" miracles. I never said that they should be portrayed as "simple natural occurrences" as you claim I said. I was merely saying that many of the scenes were too over-the-top to be believable. Yes, I believe that all the events in the Bible occurred, but no, I do not think they looked like they do in this movie. There is a reason we have faith and reason. I think it's what makes us Catholic, and not Protestant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 What I've heard sounds as over-the-top as scripture itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 What I've heard sounds as over-the-top as scripture itself. Yeah, like the world being created in 7 days, with pre-buried dinosaur bones that never actually lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 God spitting in the mud and healing blindness. God sending plagues on Egypt. God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. God hanging on a cross. God dying. God coming out of his tomb three days later. Tongues of fire. A Church made up of men (definitionally wicked things), but still holy, still utterly necessary for men to come into. A God who hides Himself as bread. Dead men's bones taking on flesh. A like of unquenchable fire where the wicked burn, for hatred of One Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Yeah, like the world being created in 7 days, with pre-buried dinosaur bones that never never actually lived. I have no idea what the Dino part is about. As for a literal 7 day creation, I do not believe it, but just to be clear Holy Church is ok with men believing that this event happened as described. No need to snatch revelation down into easy to accept bits. Our story is an unlikely one. It just happens to be an unlikely one that is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 As for a literal 7 day creation, I do not believe it, but just to be clear Holy Church is ok with men believing that this event happened as described. So we do not have to believe that it took literally 7 days to create the world, but we must believe that when Moses parted the Red Sea it had to look like a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean? I don't understand why I am being scolded here. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJon16 Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Vikings is a pretty cool show though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) So we do not have to believe that it took literally 7 days to create the world, but we must believe that when Moses parted the Red Sea it had to look like a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean? I don't understand why I am being scolded here. lol I think imagining events from scripture to be as fantastical and amazing as they are described is a healthy urge; I would not go so far as to blanketly say more rationalistic views are always inaccurate, I just think we should take care to not sound like we think God can only act within the laws of nature. He plainly violates these laws at some points--we expect a literal resurrection of all dead human flesh, Jesus Himself rose from the dead, the Virgin Birth, the Eucharist, etc. (really much more but I know you know this) I'm not scolding you. Just disagreeing that it is "bad" to show God's amesomeness as being supernatural. Socrates is scolding. Edited March 20, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 So we do not have to believe that it took literally 7 days to create the world, but we must believe that when Moses parted the Red Sea it had to look like a scene from Pirates of the Caribbean? No, it looked like a scene from the movie "The Ten Commandments," starring Charlton Heston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I never said that they should be portrayed as "simple natural occurrences" as you claim I said. I was merely saying that many of the scenes were too over-the-top to be believable. Yes, I believe that all the events in the Bible occurred, but no, I do not think they looked like they do in this movie. There is a reason we have faith and reason. I think it's what makes us Catholic, and not Protestant. The miracles of the Bible may well have been more "over-the-top" and amazing than shown in the TV program. After all, they were worked by God Almighty, not some Hollywood cgi artist. Since neither of us was there personally to witness them, I don't think either of us can say with certainty, but your description of the show actually sounds closer to the actual words of the Bible than how you say you'd prefer to see them portrayed. If we believe in an Almighty God above and beyond the laws of nature, there is nothing unreasonable about thinking that God could perform amazing miracles defying the laws of nature to show His power and justice. And many very orthodox Catholics (including my pastor) share my view on this matter. It's fidelity to the authority and teaching of the Church that makes us Catholic, and not protestant. The modernist "rationalist" interpretation of Scripture, after all, is the invention of liberal protestants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Who's behind the series? Christian? Catholic Christian? Just curious if there are any leanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Your comments make you look like you've only watched a few minutes of the series. Well, I'm sure that the miracle of the bread turning into the body and blood of Jesus Christ at your mass resembles an overly produced over the top CGI production, complete with bloody effects, eyeliner and fake beards, but at the mass I attend, Jesus keeps it a bit more humble. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) The Eucharist is a miracle, but not a visible one, because the Church's doctrine has never claimed that the bread and wine consecrated into the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ take on the appearance of human flesh and blood, but Jesus walking on water was a very visible miracle, and one that shocked the apostles when they saw it. Context is everything. Edited March 20, 2013 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It's been good so far, even if there was some artistic license taken with Moses trolling Pharaoh, by waiting until he was floating on his back in the Nile to turn it to blood. Also loved the artistic license taken with Pharaoh having a KHANNNNN moment with "MOOOSSSEEEESSSSS". Thats like the Disney movie <the Prince pof Egypt>. And that Khan moment was taken from Moby Dick - the novel. (well, Khan's quote was, not the actual screaming). Nothing new undre the sun my friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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