All This Homosexual Scandal Is Getting Old

[Evangetholic]

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Edited March 2, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Apotheoun]

Does it though?

Yeah, it does.  I have several Orthodox priest and seminarian friends, and they seem to be doing well enough spiritually in both their personal lives and as pastors.

Alas, the Eastern Catholic Churches in the United States have not done as well, but I would attribute that to the fact that the American Latin bishops and the early 20th century popes forbid our own normative practices by forcing clerical celibacy upon us.

It has only been since the 1990s that the Melkite and Ukrainian Catholic Churches have restored the practice of ordaining married men to the diaconate and the presbyterate.

[Evangetholic]

Yeah, it does.  I have several Orthodox priest and seminarian friends, and they seem to be doing well enough spiritually in both their personal lives and as pastors.

 

I edited my post because I don't want to get it into this, but:

 

In the East people frequently confess to lay persons.

 

In the East the permanent diaconate is stronger.

 

The Theology of the priesthood and the Church are different.

 

I think Roman priesthood comes with a different (not a value judgment) set of demands and expectations.

Married priests are fine for the Eastern Rites (and forcing Roman discipline on Eastern Catholics in the West was not wise).

Edited March 2, 2013 by Evangetholic

[arfink]

I know a couple of Eastern Catholic priests who are married, and while it is a distinct challenge for them, I don't see them as dysfunctional at all. The life of an Eastern Catholic priest is usually very different from the way they do diocesan priesthood in the US anyway. The life of a US diocesan priest is pretty unusual as priesthood goes. Just sayin.

[Apotheoun]

. . .

Married priests are fine for the Eastern Rites (and forcing Roman discipline on Eastern Catholics in the West was not wise).

Couldn't have said that better myself. Forcing the Latin discipline of celibacy on the Eastern Catholic Churches caused the conversion of almost half of all the Eastern Catholics living in the United States to Eastern Orthodoxy at the end of the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Basilisa Marie]

The Eastern Churches have had married clergy for 2,000 years and seem to be able to make it work.

 

Yeah, they've got 2000 years of practice on us. 

[StMichael]

The homosexual issue, that is magnified by 1000% when it comes to the way the media handles the Church really began, from what I have been told by clergy, after Vatican II. The seminary became a place where homosexual men were able to hide as the social mores of the time questioned why a man at the age of 22 or 25 or 30 was still unmarried. 

 

The seminaries went from devotion to Church to self actualization. I know a few men who entered the seminary in the late 60's/ 70's for this reason. They left, married, had children and then left their families to pursue what they couldn't in those times. One man I know was in the seminary in the late 70's in Italy. He came to the US, had an extremely successful career and then out of nowhere, left his wife and 3 children to be "himself."

 

The other issue we have today is men becoming Priests as a step up from poverty, especially in 3rd world countries. You are guaranteed 3 squares, money, clean clothing, education, etc. We have seen this happen over and over again, as in the case of the Pastor of Our Lady of Las Vegas a few years back.

 

The bar, prior to Vatican II, was very high to join the Priesthood. With the move to open the church it allowed far more in than it bargained for.

 

As for why Priests cannot marry. For the 1st 400 years they were allowed. The issue was that their dedication to the flock was distracted by the need to be dedicated to their own families. So for the last 1600 years or so, this was ended as you had Pastors willing Church property to their families.

 

This is not a bash on Vatican II, but in so many cases we have an entire generation not even knowing what a Nun is. Before Vatican II Nuns were dedicated to education, healthcare and then after Vatican II it was opened up to almost anything. You have children in Catholic schools who have never, ever seen a Nun. They are taught by lay people who in many cases are not excellent or even good representatives of the Church. This saddens me to no end. 

 

 

[Guest]

Very informative post...Thanks St. Michael...Godbless pham...

[Gabriela]

The early Church did have married bishops, and some of those bishops had children after their elevation to the episcopate (e.g., the father of St. Gregory of Nazianzus).  The Eastern Churches only restricted the office of bishop to monastics at the Quinisext Council, while in the same canons affirming the right of presbyters and deacons to live with their wives and to continue conjugal relations subject only to the marital fast.

 

What is "the marital fast"?

The life of a US diocesan priest is pretty unusual as priesthood goes.

 

How so?

[arfink]

^^ Abstinence isn't just for meat...

 

As for the life of US diocesan priests being unusual... do some reading about guys like Archbishop Ireland from my own state of Minnesota, and how his influence radically changed the church in the US. You'll begin to see how our presbyterate is very different. This "Americanism" was more or less informally regarded as heretical, and was responsible for the mass exodus of Eastern Catholics to the Orthodox churches.

 

In effect a number of the bishops here decided they wanted their own unique church rather than a collection of other churches and traditions coming over from Europe. Rather than simply wait and let the faith in America develop organically, they chose to restructure almost everything, including how church property works, tinkering with Canon law, and forcing uniform practice on Eastern Catholics in particular. As such, the life of priests in the US has been pretty different. It was a very rough transition.

Edited March 2, 2013 by arfink

[Gabriela]

^^ Abstinence isn't just for meat...

 

Obviously. But "THE marital fast" makes it sound like there are certain times that couples are supposed to abstain. Are there? What are the reasons? I've never heard of this.

 

As for the life of US diocesan priests being unusual... do some reading about guys like Archbishop Ireland from my own state of Minnesota, and how his influence radically changed the church in the US. You'll begin to see how our presbyterate is very different. This "Americanism" was more or less informally regarded as heretical, and was responsible for the mass exodus of Eastern Catholics to the Orthodox churches.

 

Dude, I come in here so people can explain things to me. It's a way of socializing while also learning. I've got enough reading to do for my thesis/diss! I might get to this in 5 or 6 years... In the meantime, I'll likely die of curiosity.

[arfink]

Obviously. But "THE marital fast" makes it sound like there are certain times that couples are supposed to abstain. Are there? What are the reasons? I've never heard of this.

 

 

Dude, I come in here so people can explain things to me. It's a way of socializing while also learning. I've got enough reading to do for my thesis/diss! I might get to this in 5 or 6 years... In the meantime, I'll likely die of curiosity.

 

My bad.

 

The US diocesan priest is more isolated than other priests, especially today. They are isolated from fellow priests, from the bishop, from their own congregations, from the Universal church. The diocesan priesthood here has become a very lone wolf kind of approach. It's taken a while to get to this point, and it's not that way in other countries and not that way for Eastern Catholics. I know a couple of priests in Ghana who are far more deeply connected with their people than most US diocesan priests are, and who know their bishop on a very personal level. The US presbyterate has a reputation for not being like this. Priests are given orders from the chancery, who get their orders from the bishop. The repeated scandals have made priests largely inaccessible: they fear false accusation in the course of their duties, and the people in the parish suffer as the isolation continues to grow.

 

This comes from the desire to have a very uniform notion how priests and parishes ought to be. Sure, uniformity is nice, but people can go nuts over this stuff. Of course, this is just my understanding, based on my time in seminary. It comes from talking with men in formation, talking with priests in connection with the seminary program, talking with priests who are just friends. The diocesan life in the US is just very different from all other kinds of priesthood.

[Gabriela]

My bad.

 

The US diocesan priest is more isolated than other priests, especially today. They are isolated from fellow priests, from the bishop, from their own congregations, from the Universal church. The diocesan priesthood here has become a very lone wolf kind of approach. It's taken a while to get to this point, and it's not that way in other countries and not that way for Eastern Catholics. I know a couple of priests in Ghana who are far more deeply connected with their people than most US diocesan priests are, and who know their bishop on a very personal level. The US presbyterate has a reputation for not being like this. Priests are given orders from the chancery, who get their orders from the bishop. The repeated scandals have made priests largely inaccessible: they fear false accusation in the course of their duties, and the people in the parish suffer as the isolation continues to grow.

 

This comes from the desire to have a very uniform notion how priests and parishes ought to be. Sure, uniformity is nice, but people can go nuts over this stuff. Of course, this is just my understanding, based on my time in seminary. It comes from talking with men in formation, talking with priests in connection with the seminary program, talking with priests who are just friends. The diocesan life in the US is just very different from all other kinds of priesthood.

 

Aha. Very informative. Thank you!

 

I can see how that would be an "Americanized" version of the priesthood, given our obsession with standardization, bureaucracy, and assembly-line-like efficiency.

 

I thought, however, that I'd heard stories of European priests in times past being assigned to rather isolated posts. Like St. John Vianney, for example. Was that just more rare there/then? Maybe they only sent the super-strong to such posts, whereas in the US essentially every priest is expected to endure in such isolation?

[arfink]

Aha. Very informative. Thank you!

 

I can see how that would be an "Americanized" version of the priesthood, given our obsession with standardization, bureaucracy, and assembly-line-like efficiency.

 

I thought, however, that I'd heard stories of European priests in times past being assigned to rather isolated posts. Like St. John Vianney, for example. Was that just more rare there/then? Maybe they only sent the super-strong to such posts, whereas in the US essentially every priest is expected to endure in such isolation?

 

I'm not saying there were no isolated priests before the American trends got going. It just wasn't the norm, and people knew it should not be. Here it's the norm to be isolated.

[Debra Little]

it has been old for a long long time.