reyb Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) It's really not wise for you to quote St. Ignatios of Antioch, because he was an actual disciple of the Apostles, and he taught quite firmly - unlike you - that Christ was actually incarnate, that is, that He actually became man, and lived on this very earth, and that he taught people the Gospel, and that He suffered, died, and was buried, and that He rose again from the dead. I believe the sacred scriptures, and I believe what St. Ignatios said, but I do not have any reason to believe your rantings. Reyb, no offense, but not only are your posts confusing, but you come of as really confused yourself. There is no coherence to your theological opinions. I hate to say it, but you fall into the category of an anti-Christ as defined by St. John in his first letter. Even if you are listening ‘intently’ to a true witness of God. There is no guarantee that you will see Christ the way these witnesses saw Him or you will know Christ the way they know Him. Because (again, I will repeat it again), only God can reveal his Christ to any man. I already discussed these things many times. Do you really believe that only God can reveal his Christ or not? (Because up to now you do not hear me). So, even if Ignatius is a follower of the writer of the book of John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch) or even if Theudas (the teacher of Valentinus, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)) is a follower of Apostle Paul. There is no guarantee that they (Ignatius and Theudas) will understand these witnesses in a way they should be because ‘only God can reveal his Christ’. Okay. Suppose Ignatius claim is true about this historical Jesus. Who among these witnesses of God saw this coming of historical Jesus? Do Apostle Paul saw it? Do Luke saw it? Do Abraham, Job, Moses, Jonah.....all of them, Who among them (do you think) saw this coming of your historical Jesus? Can you please tell me, How? Edited March 9, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) Okay. Suppose Ignatius claim is true about this historical Jesus. Who among these witnesses of God saw this coming of historical Jesus? Did Apostle Paul saw it? Did Luke saw it? Did Abraham, Job, Moses, Jonah.....all of them, Who among them (do you think) saw this coming of your historical Jesus? Can you please tell me, How? Edited March 9, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) You (Christian Pastors and Priests) do not really realize the impending disaster you will reap. Don’t you know that even your prayers are abomination to God? How many times you will be reminded that The One and Only God who made everything does not need anything from you? So, to whom do you give your offering if this One True God do not expect anything from you? This is the reason why I dare you to read to me the following verses. It is written (Please see Act 17:23-30) ----------- Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: --------------------------- Again, to whom do you give your offering if this One True God do not expect anything from you? Edited March 10, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Hi, Reyb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 ok reyb, i will try to listen to you. So right now I am really confused. Please exaplin to me who is the historical Jesus. Also, is there another Jesus? A non historical Jesus? Do you believe Jesus was real flesh and blood, both man and divine and everything recorder in the gospels abouot Jesus is 100% complete fact? What do you disgaree with that the catholic church teaches? I am really confused reyb but am willing to give you a chance but you got to answer these questions first so I can at least get a starting point on where you are going. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 Hi, Reyb. Hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 10, 2013 Author Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) ok reyb, i will try to listen to you. So right now I am really confused. Please exaplin to me who is the historical Jesus. Also, is there another Jesus? A non historical Jesus? Do you believe Jesus was real flesh and blood, both man and divine and everything recorder in the gospels abouot Jesus is 100% complete fact? What do you disgaree with that the catholic church teaches? I am really confused reyb but am willing to give you a chance but you got to answer these questions first so I can at least get a starting point on where you are going. Thanks Thank you. You will never see a statement ‘historical Jesus’ in any sacred writings but I used this term in order to differentiate ‘other Jesus’ mentioned by Apostle Paul (2 Cor 11:4) to their Jesus. This ‘other Jesus’ whom they do not preached is the one I called ‘historical Jesus’ which is the Jesus of your early fathers like Ignatius. (I will explain this thing later). Why I called it ‘historical Jesus’? Because, they (your early fathers) said this Jesus came in this world (which is now running to more than 2000 years ago) 'historically'. That he was born, from a virgin girl named Mary, who is in turn betrothed to Joseph during the days of Herod, in Nazareth which is now the largest city in Israel. He grew there with his carpenter-father and a beautiful mother who is forever virgin (I do not know how it become possible even after giving birth to Jesus), learned to converse or discuss about God at a very young age, and at the age of 33 he was crucified and died for a crime he did not commit after he taught to everyone about the coming of the kingdom of God for three years (he started to teach at the age of 30). To make it short, This Catholics’ Jesus (or Ignatius Jesus) is the one I called ‘historical Jesus’ and this Jesus is stated in the Bible. Thus, your early fathers (and the entire Christian world) are very positive that this is the true and real Christ mentioned by all God’s witnesses. Are we now clear? (About this historical Jesus and then, I will proceed). Edited March 10, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beati Pacifici Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Did you get all of your information from this page? http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 Thank you. You will never see a statement ‘historical Jesus’ in any sacred writings but I used this term in order to differentiate ‘other Jesus’ mentioned by Apostle Paul (2 Cor 11:4) to their Jesus. This ‘other Jesus’ whom they do not preached is the one I called ‘historical Jesus’ which is the Jesus of your early fathers like Ignatius. (I will explain this thing later). Why I called it ‘historical Jesus’? Because, they (your early fathers) said this Jesus came in this world (which is now running to more than 2000 years ago) 'historically'. That he was born, from a virgin girl named Mary, who is in turn betrothed to Joseph during the days of Herod, in Nazareth which is now the largest city in Israel. He grew there with his carpenter-father and a beautiful mother who is forever virgin (I do not know how it become possible even after giving birth to Jesus), learned to converse or discuss about God at a very young age, and at the age of 33 he was crucified and died for a crime he did not commit after he taught to everyone about the coming of the kingdom of God for three years (he started to teach at the age of 30). To make it short, This Catholics’ Jesus (or Ignatius Jesus) is the one I called ‘historical Jesus’ and this Jesus is stated in the Bible. Thus, your early fathers (and the entire Christian world) are very positive that this is the true and real Christ mentioned by all God’s witnesses. Are we now clear? (About this historical Jesus and then, I will proceed). so you don't believe in the Jesus mentioned in the gospels? you don;t believe he was a real person? you believe it was all a lie? we can't move on because i'm still not understanding you. here's some advice, stop going on and on and give simple answers to these questions: 1. Do you believe the Jesus of the gospels was a real person and that everything in the gospels is accurate? 2. Is your Jesus a real person? 3. So are you saying your Jesus is different from the Jesus in the gospels and different from the Jesus nearly all christians pray to? 4. What church do you attend? I take it you do go to some kind of service, which denomination is it? Do you go to church at all? 5. Do you believe that the Jesus st.paul was talking about was a real person? If not then was Peter lying when he was talking about Jesus, the Jesus he met. 6. Where did you get your beliefs from? From an organized religion or did you come to them 100% completely on your own. I would appriciate simple answers to these questions and not going off a some tangent that does not answer these questions. If you want people to try to listen to you and understand your points you have to be willing to answer their questions. In the past I feel like you have not answered questions but run off of tangents. So if you could pleased answer these simple questions with simple answers then we can move on. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 How can I answer you in a very simple way when you asked me in many and varying questions? I am simply asking you in my previous post whether we are clear about my definition of historical Jesus. Again, are we clear about this historical Jesus (that this historical Jesus is Catholic’s Jesus Christ). Are we clear now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Did you get all of your information from this page? http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html If you are asking me, how I learn to realize that this historical Jesus is a lie, is because of their works (books and letter from that site). Then, my answer is no. Anyway, thankyou in giving me this site. Edited March 11, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 How can I answer you in a very simple way when you asked me in many and varying questions? I am simply asking you in my previous post whether we are clear about my definition of historical Jesus. Again, are we clear about this historical Jesus (that this historical Jesus is Catholic’s Jesus Christ). Are we clear now? no its not clear, far from it. reyb i am trying to listen but i feel like you are not trying to let people understand. I feel like your justy trying to confuse people. This is why I asked the question, to understand about this historical Jesus. All these questions will help me understand what your meaning by historical Jesus. Here's the thing reyb, you don't answer people's questions, so i doubt if you are actually sincere what your trying to do here. I don't know if anyone understands what you mean by historical Jesus. Many people have tried to understand but your have not given straight forward answers to let people understand what you mean by historical Jesus. If you really are sincere in wanting people to understand what your saying then actually answer questions people ask you. All questions I asked are simple enough to answer and will help me what you mean by historeical Jesus. If your sincere in your desire please answer the questions. If you just don't answer like you have in the past then I will know you are not sincere and will just move on. The choice is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 clear this up for me reyb. so you don't believe the Jesus that was mentioned in the bible is real? cause that's what you said. so where does your Jesus come from if not from the bible at all? cause you said the catholic Jesus is the Jesus mentioned in the bible which would mean your Jesus comes from somewhere else that is not the bibe. if this is not what your meaning then this is what i mean about confusing people, cause i am confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted March 11, 2013 Author Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) clear this up for me reyb. so you don't believe the Jesus that was mentioned in the bible is real? cause that's what you said. so where does your Jesus come from if not from the bible at all? cause you said the catholic Jesus is the Jesus mentioned in the bible which would mean your Jesus comes from somewhere else that is not the bibe. if this is not what your meaning then this is what i mean about confusing people, cause i am confused. I thought you want me to speak and let me explain my side. I hold my answers to your questions because you will surely misunderstand me more than what you have already. For example, I repeated many times about this historical Jesus but still you are saying you do not get it. This is one of the reasons why I momentarily stop so that we will be at the same page of whatever I will try to deliver for our future discussions. I really cannot accept your complaint saying you do not understand me regarding this historical Jesus. Let me put it this way, Apostle Paul is saying two different Jesus in his letter. Now, one of these two Jesus is your Catholic’ Jesus. I am sure you know your (Catholic) Jesus because you 'get' this 'knowledge' from the bible in the same way your early fathers (like Ignatius) have it. That Jesus is the historical Jesus I am talking about. Are we clear now? (and then I will proceed). Edited March 11, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 I thought you want me to speak and let me explain my side. I hold my answers to your questions because you will surely misunderstand me more than what you have already. For example, I repeated many times about this historical Jesus but still you are saying you do not get it. This is one of the reasons why I momentarily stop so that we will be at the same page of whatever I will try to deliver for our future discussions. I really cannot accept your complaint saying you do not understand me regarding this historical Jesus. Let me put it this way, Apostle Paul is saying two different Jesus in his letter. Now, one of these two Jesus is your Catholic’ Jesus. I am sure you know your (Catholic) Jesus because you 'get' this 'knowledge' from the bible in the same way your early fathers (like Ignatius) have it. That Jesus is the historical Jesus I am talking about. Are we clear now? (and then I will proceed). no its not clear reyb. its not clear to me or to anyone. you may have repeated about the historical Jesus many times but no one here understands what you mean. so your saying there are 2 different Jesus in the bible? ok, so.... I don't even where to start. ok how about this, which Jesus is the Jesus in the gospels? Are these two Jesus both real living and breathing people? You are so confusing me how you are are saying there are two Jesus in the bible. Tell me how their is two Jesus and where in the bible does it talk about their being two Jesus? I'm trying reyb, you got to answer some questions to help me understand. Understand something no one else here understands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now