The Stupid, Never-ending Voris Debate

[EmilyAnn]

You made a few specific claims about what Voris has said which you, thus far, have not backed up. I am sure you are not lying, but we cannot proceed further without seeing the actual source.

So have other people, yet you're not asking them to back it up. 

I actually have important work to be doing so I'll leave you guys to this pointless discussion. 

[Nihil Obstat]

So have other people, yet you're not asking them to back it up. 

I actually have important work to be doing so I'll leave you guys to this pointless discussion. 

I actually did not ask that of Evange because I have seen the videos he is referring to. Those happen to be the only videos I have seen. I should have made that clear, but I was on my phone at work.

For yours, I am not familiar with the videos, so I have no proper context. Therefore I cannot deal with any of those points until that is addressed.

[Evangetholic]

My opinions of Voris are based on viewing dozens of videos. I haven't the time or inclination to source them all, but I think he's Fr. Coughlin come again. And this is not based on his opinions it's based on the imprudence of his sharing them in the aggressive manner he chooses. Several orthodox Catholics on and off of this site have said essentially the same thing. I'm well on my way to being trad. I still think Voris is an ass, at best. At worst he seems like a rigorist who will eventually build a cult of personality around himself and end up outside of this Unam Sanctum via excommunication.

 

 

[Basilisa Marie]

The pro-Voris people's argument seems to be, "So what if it offends you?"   Right?

 

The fact that it offends me matters.  I'm saying this is more than a mere matter of taste.  Voris is someone who has propped himself up as a Catholic minister, like many people do on the Internet.  The way he presents himself matters, because he's putting himself in a position of authority, and from that position of authority twisting the Catholic faith to suit his opinions, he's spinning his messages to support a particular kind of disposition. He's not sending the message that these things are merely his own opinions.  He starts every video with a statement about how he's revealing truth from lies.  Those of us who put ourselves in a position of authority on matters of the Faith have a responsibility to guard the truth.  Voris is twisting the truths of the Catholic faith to support his own wishes, and as a minister this is highly irresponsible.

[Amppax]

Just to make it clear, I don't disagree too substantially with Basilia.  I simply think she's making more out of that video than is there.  However, I really don't know the history of all this that well.  If Voris is fudging history (which I suspect he is) then I have less respect for him than before.  I've stated in pretty much every Voris debate that I don't like his videos. 

 

Basilia, I'm sorry if it seemed like we ganged up on you unfairly, I can see how you'd feel that way based on how this thread has unfolded.  That personally wasn't my intention, and I'm fairly certain it wasn't Nihil's or KoC's. 

 

Edit: I think the above post is a fair criticism, FWIW.  

Edited February 27, 2013 by Amppax

[Evangetholic]

The pro-Voris people's argument seems to be, "So what if it offends you?"   Right?

 

The fact that it offends me matters.  I'm saying this is more than a mere matter of taste.  Voris is someone who has propped himself up as a Catholic minister, like many people do on the Internet.  The way he presents himself matters, because he's putting himself in a position of authority, and from that position of authority twisting the Catholic faith to suit his opinions, he's spinning his messages to support a particular kind of disposition. He's not sending the message that these things are merely his own opinions.  He starts every video with a statement about how he's revealing truth from lies.  Those of us who put ourselves in a position of authority on matters of the Faith have a responsibility to guard the truth.  Voris is twisting the truths of the Catholic faith to support his own wishes, and as a minister this is highly irresponsible.

 

The Empress has cogently pointed out why we soft modernists dislike him, again.

[KnightofChrist]

And all I have done is give my opinion. But apparently I have to give sources and back it all up with specific videos, yet you haven't asked Papist to do that.

Cool. But how do I get Papist to source Voris' supposed whining? It's a vague baseless charge that can't really be proven. His charges were too lame imho and vague to bother asking for source. You laid out specific charges, which you didn't back up with facts, that's the difference, not because you're a woman. Perhaps maybe I said cool because I was thinking that this thread is stoopid and too judgemental and said cool as in whatever this is lame, or maybe just maybe I actually meant cool at least you agree that abuses can be reported on! I'm betting on the later!

[r2Dtoo]

It takes an atheist to recognize  a closet atheist, and Michael Voris is definitely a closest atheist.

 

Back when the Pope had just resigned, FP posted a video of Voris discussing the matter while in the Philippines.  He said something along the lines of "People all over the world are leaving their faith because of elections."  Seriously?  You have to be a life-long atheist to actually believe that.  I mean, maybe if we were still throwing Christians to lions, but just because your guy didn't win an election you think Catholics are leaving the Church?  Na, no real Catholic would believe that.  Voris is just making money off of you people.  

[Autumn Dusk]

It takes an atheist to recognize  a closet atheist, and Michael Voris is definitely a closest atheist.

 

Back when the Pope had just resigned, FP posted a video of Voris discussing the matter while in the Philippines.  He said something along the lines of "People all over the world are leaving their faith because of elections."  Seriously?  You have to be a life-long atheist to actually believe that.  I mean, maybe if we were still throwing Christians to lions, but just because your guy didn't win an election you think Catholics are leaving the Church?  Na, no real Catholic would believe that.  Voris is just making money off of you people.  

 

See, wild speculation.  But will probably be taken more seriously than teh womans and heretics.

[Papist]

Cool. But how do I get Papist to source Voris' supposed whining? It's a vague baseless charge that can't really be proven. His charges were too lame imho and vague to bother asking for source. You laid out specific charges, which you didn't back up with facts, that's the difference, not because you're a woman. Perhaps maybe I said cool because I was thinking that this thread is stoopid and too judgemental and said cool as in whatever this is lame, or maybe just maybe I actually meant cool at least you agree that abuses can be reported on! I'm betting on the later!

 

The source is Voris' videos.  

 

e.g. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMcMHyswPd4

[Basilisa Marie]

Just to make it clear, I don't disagree too substantially with Basilia.  I simply think she's making more out of that video than is there.  However, I really don't know the history of all this that well.  If Voris is fudging history (which I suspect he is) then I have less respect for him than before.  I've stated in pretty much every Voris debate that I don't like his videos. 

 

Basilia, I'm sorry if it seemed like we ganged up on you unfairly, I can see how you'd feel that way based on how this thread has unfolded.  That personally wasn't my intention, and I'm fairly certain it wasn't Nihil's or KoC's. 

 

Edit: I think the above post is a fair criticism, FWIW.  

 

Eh, it's all good.  I hold no grudges against y'all.  I just get super frustrated with people who publicly set themselves up to be "good Catholics" and an "authority" on "truth" and then turn into spin doctors for their own soapbox. I think those people who call themselves ministers on the internet have a serious obligation to defend the Church's teachings in their whole truth, not just the parts that feel good to them.  I'd feel differently if Voris just had a speaking tour or something, because then his audience is limited. But on the internet, the world is your audience, and Catholics have a hard enough time getting taken seriously without people like him twisting Church teaching.  I feel the same way about liberal politicians that parade their Catholicism for votes but don't reflect it in their positions...so I hope no one thinks I'm trying to pick on trads or anything. 

 

Obviously I'm not actually a misandrist, and I do think you guys are cool and stuff.  :)  I get frustrated when it seems like I'm not getting anywhere in stating my position, and then someone else comes along and says basically the same thing and is lauded for it.  It's super common for lady experiences to get written off as silly feelings that don't matter and for dude experiences to be considered reasonable. So what if I talk more about feelings than cold logic? That doesn't make the way I experience the videos any less valid than someone else's.  I know that certainly wasn't your intention, but it didn't stop things from looking like that.  Who knows, this might not have happened if we had been talking face to face instead of online.  

[r2Dtoo]

See, wild speculation.  But will probably be taken more seriously than teh womans and heretics.

It was Voris' own words, and what's so wild speculation about closet atheists making money off of Christians?  Scientists turn Creationist all the time in their old age because the pay is good.  Voris is just following their example.

[Evangetholic]

I'm a sciencey evolutionizer.

[PhuturePriest]

I'm a smelly pirate hooker.

[vee]

Im a misogynist