The Stupid, Never-ending Voris Debate

[Evangetholic]

He never said to excommunicate them. He said it was at one point an act that you got excommunicated for, he said that the Cardinal is encouraging people to receive on the knees and on the tongue, but never did he say to excommunicate people for it.

 

I can see why it would be offensive to you if you were totally against receiving on the tongue and on your knees. I don't know why you would, since the Pope and tradition have stressed this as the correct way to do it (I say that being a person that receives standing up), but I can see it.

 

Actually, he has a very big following. He doesn't go country to country all throughout the year doing talks because two people have heard about him.

His audience is small in terms of the actual number of people in this billion man church who have ever heard of him.

[Basilisa Marie]

*Violates self-imposed exile, again*

 

The Church needs heroes right now. Voris compares the current levels of dissent to the days of the Arian heresy, I think he is correct. My grandmother had nine children all raised in the Church by a holy woman and a non-obstructive father, 8 of them are Protestants and one of them makes Shelby Spong look orthodox. This believe it or not is the story of many (most in the South) Catholic families. My complaint about Voris mostly is about the words that he chooses when defending the faith and that he dares and suggest that people who are already only weakly attached to the Church (those are preserving a Catholic identity, but not faith) go ahead and formalize their errors by leaving this Ark outside of which no men may be saved. His haranguing might turn the lukewarm hot, but it seems apt (his audience is small, so maybe not) to drive the cold (the hardly Christian) straight out of the Church and into the arms of what? Speak truth, God knows that the Church is bearing the wounds of a half century of truth not being spoken in plain and accessible terms; but speak it with gentleness. How many of the people he's  talking about, the irreverent, the immoral, the heretical are apt to hear him and be turned to repentance? Our God is the God who slew the first born of Egypt and who drowned Pharaoh's Army, but He's also the one who ate with sinners and prostitutes and the one who has given us the Sacraments which save men's lives. 

 

This will become a standing caveat: If my "romanticism" and my "purple prose" give you  offense then phatmass comes with a button that allows you to hide me from before your eyes.

 

I agree with this. 

My problem with the video is that it implies that I'm not as good of a Catholic for preferring to receive in the hand in most situations. It connects my perfectly legitimate preference with heresy, implies that those connections are still legitimate for our purposes today. It implies that I am spiritually deficient, and acting in defiance of the wishes of high ranking clergy (completely disregarding the fact that my own bishop has instituted receiving while standing to be the norm). It alienates me, and I don't even consider myself a lukewarm Catholic.  Videos like this don't serve true evangelization - they only serve to further inspire those who already agree with him. They don't reach out to those who think differently.  If anything, they push those who have different spiritual preferences away.  

[KnightofChrist]

I agree with this.

My problem with the video is that it implies that I'm not as good of a Catholic for preferring to receive in the hand in most situations. It connects my perfectly legitimate preference with heresy, implies that those connections are still legitimate for our purposes today. It implies that I am spiritually deficient, and acting in defiance of the wishes of high ranking clergy (completely disregarding the fact that my own bishop has instituted receiving while standing to be the norm). It alienates me, and I don't even consider myself a lukewarm Catholic. Videos like this don't serve true evangelization - they only serve to further inspire those who already agree with him. They don't reach out to those who think differently. If anything, they push those who have different spiritual preferences away.

Just because you feel that is what he is implying doesn't make it true that that is what he really means. Edited February 27, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[Basilisa Marie]

Just because you feel that is what he is implying doesn't make it true.

 

What's true is that his video alienates me, a practicing Catholic.  And if it alienates me, it's not a logical leap to say that it alienates others. 

 

I don't care what he's implying.  I'm talking about the effects of his video.  We can't intend or control all of the effects of our actions, but we have an obligation to do our best to consider the potential effects of our actions before we act.  

[Nihil Obstat]

So the big beef is he thinks Communion on the tongue and kneeling is superior? Even here that is not particularly notable. So he is more bombastic about it. Big deal.

[KnightofChrist]

What's true is that his video alienates me, a practicing Catholic. And if it alienates me, it's not a logical leap to say that it alienates others.

I don't care what he's implying. I'm talking about the effects of his video. We can't intend or control all of the effects of our actions, but we have an obligation to do our best to consider the potential effects of our actions before we act.

But now we're back to talking about Voris' guilt (for the lack of a better word) based on personal feelings rather than objective facts. Not everyone sees Voris the way you do, the emotions you get and how you feel about what he says may be the complete opposite in others. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[Basilisa Marie]

So the big beef is he thinks Communion on the tongue and kneeling is superior? Even here that is not particularly notable. So he is more bombastic about it. Big deal.

 

It's a big deal because he's connecting the perfectly legitimate, and normative action of receiving while standing with excommunication.

 

He is implying that I'm less of a perfect Catholic for receiving in this way.  That I have something in common with heretics, heretics that have been stamped out.  

 

It's the big beef of the evening because it was a short video for me to transcribe for your convenience, and is suitably offensive to me.  

[Nihil Obstat]

It's a big deal because he's connecting the perfectly legitimate, and normative action of receiving while standing with excommunication.

He is implying that I'm less of a perfect Catholic for receiving in this way. That I have something in common with heretics, heretics that have been stamped out.

It's the big beef of the evening because it was a short video for me to transcribe for your convenience, and is suitably offensive to me.

So he thinks Communion while standing should be stopped. I fail to see an issue, besides his hyperbolic solutions.

[Basilisa Marie]

But now we're back to talking about Voris' guilt (for the lack of a better word) based on personal feelings rather than objective facts. Not everyone sees Voris the way you do, the emotions you get and how you feel about what he says may be the complete opposite in others. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

Personal feelings are incredibly important to the Christian spiritual life.  If we ignored personal feelings, no one would ever make a serious discernment about serious issues, most notably one's vocation.  Ignoring personal feelings is not Christian.  

 

I know not everyone sees Voris the way I do.  I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm asking you to try and place yourself in my position and see how he can be perceived as offensive.  

[KnightofChrist]

It's a big deal because he's connecting the perfectly legitimate, and normative action of receiving while standing with excommunication.

He is implying that I'm less of a perfect Catholic for receiving in this way. That I have something in common with heretics, heretics that have been stamped out.

It's the big beef of the evening because it was a short video for me to transcribe for your convenience, and is suitably offensive to me.

I honestly do not see that he implies any of that.

[Basilisa Marie]

So he thinks Communion while standing should be stopped. I fail to see an issue, besides his hyperbolic solutions.

 

 

It is an issue because...

 

 It implies that I am spiritually deficient, and acting in defiance of the wishes of high ranking clergy (completely disregarding the fact that my own bishop has instituted receiving while standing to be the norm). It alienates me, and I don't even consider myself a lukewarm Catholic.  Videos like this don't serve true evangelization - they only serve to further inspire those who already agree with him. They don't reach out to those who think differently.  If anything, they push those who have different spiritual preferences away.  

 

I honestly do not see that he implies any of that.

 

 

I know not everyone sees Voris the way I do.  I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm asking you to try and place yourself in my position and see how he can be perceived as offensive.  

[KnightofChrist]

Personal feelings are incredibly important to the Christian spiritual life. If we ignored personal feelings, no one would ever make a serious discernment about serious issues, most notably one's vocation. Ignoring personal feelings is not Christian.

Feelings are indeed very important, yes incredibly important. But we need facts when we accuse, not feelings. Not to say we should have no emotions when we argue for or against someone or something. But our position should be based on facts and not feelings of what wasn't said but we feel like was said.

I know not everyone sees Voris the way I do. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm asking you to try and place yourself in my position and see how he can be perceived as offensive.

I honestly do see how one could see Voris the way you do, really I do, but again in like manner I can see how anyone could be offended by anything anyone says about religion or politics. Edited February 27, 2013 by KnightofChrist

[Basilisa Marie]

Feelings are indeed very important, yes incredibly important. But we need facts when we accuse, not feelings. Not to say we should have no emotions when we argue for or against someone or something. But our position should be based on facts and not feelings of what wasn't said but we feel like was said.


I honestly do see how one see Voris the way you do, really I do, but again in like manner I can see how anyone could be offended by anything anyone says about religion or politics.

 

 

His own intentions behind what he's saying aren't relevant, because there's no way anyone can know what they are.  What we CAN know is how people react to his videos.  If a group of people say something is problematic and offensive, it's probably problematic and offensive to that group of people.  

 

Okay, what about this:  If I made a video talking about history and receiving on the tongue while kneeling being a false invention by the Gallicans who injected unworthiness theology into the liturgy that was based on their reverence of their secular leaders and had no basis in the original practice of Christianity, then added something about the US bishops making receiving while standing the norm in our country and although they technically don't outlaw receiving while kneeling, and then finished with a statement about how receiving while standing has a strong connection with being a member of the Elect in Christ just like the first Christians....

 

How would you perceive such a video? 

[Amppax]

 

Dearest defenders of Voris, please explain to me how the above transcript I just made of the video I just linked above does not equate receiving while standing and in the hand with excommunication and heresy.  I'm going to ignore the blatant misrepresentation of what went down at the councils in Saragossa, the fact that the discipline canons weren't issued until the third council in 691, and that matters of discipline in the Church are completely free to change without danger of heresy or loss of the Holy Spirit.  

 

Sorry.  Not even a little bit of a fan of Voris, but I'm going to have to agree with Nihil on this one.  I don't like what he does in the video, but I don't think what he does is equate the current practice with the heresy.  Sort of, but not really.  And that "not really" is enough for me to watch the video, go ew, and go back to ignoring Voris. 

[Nihil Obstat]

It is an issue because...
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He disagrees with you. When we get down to the root of it, I fall much more on 'his' side than 'yours'. Such is life in the Church. I think you are making much more of this than necessary.