Orthodox Metropolitan Blasts Anglicans For Renouncing The Faith

[BG45]

The Russian Orthodox Church is at least preparing for the fight against the undead by blessing these assault rifles.

 

[Evangetholic]

More likely to kill journalists and Chechen Muslims.

[4588686]

More likely to kill journalists and Chechen Muslims.

That's Putin's forte.

[mortify]

Nice generalization.  You have little or no respect for Russian Orthodox hierarchs because there is a photograph (altered at some point) showing the Patriarch wearing an expensive watch, and so - somehow for you - all Russian Orthodox hierarchs are suspect?  Interesting.

 

Yes, the greed of the hierarchs and the fact that most collaborated with the Communist government and were KGB agents themselves. I said "most" although it's conceivable that to reach such a high level in the Russian Church during the Soviet era would require one to already be a collaborator.

 

http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/demokratizatsiya%20archive/01-04_armes.pdf

 

I suppose my Russian Orthodox friends could apply a similar generalization to the child sex abuse scandal in the Roman Church too, that is, that all Roman Catholic hierarchs are suspect and that they lack any respect for them, but what good would that do?  Let's just lump all Roman Catholic bishops together and say that the actions of a few taints them all.

 

And it did taint them all, we still suffer from the consequences of their action (or inaction.)

 

I guess Metropolitan Hilarion should not have spoken so firmly in the article about cooperation between the Roman Church and the Orthodox Churches.

 

Let us hope for real, substantial cooperation and not one that is vacuous

[Apotheoun]

Yes, the greed of the hierarchs and the fact that most collaborated with the Communist government and were KGB agents themselves. I said "most" although it's conceivable that to reach such a high level in the Russian Church during the Soviet era would require one to already be a collaborator.

 

http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/demokratizatsiya%20archive/01-04_armes.pdf

 

 

And it did taint them all, we still suffer from the consequences of their action (or inaction.)

 

 

Let us hope for real, substantial cooperation and not one that is vacuous

The vast majority of the hierarchs in the Russian Orthodox Church have been ordained since the fall of communism, and so once again your generalization is just that, a prejudiced and useless statement.

 

On the other hand, large numbers of Roman Catholic bishops in America have been involved actively and passively in allowing the sex abuse of children.  I think the Russian Orthodox bishops look tame in comparison.  

 

Worst of all the Roman bishops did their acts without facing state organized persecution.

. . . 

 

Let us hope for real, substantial cooperation and not one that is vacuous

Cooperation on moral issues is possible, although who knows where the vast majority of Roman Catholic bishops will be on those issues in ten or twenty years time.  The Roman Catholic Church is not used to state organized persecution and it may cave in quickly.  Heck the Roman hierarchs have been caving in to the secular culture and the state in America for around 50 years now without any persecution.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Evangetholic]

The vast majority of the hierarchs in the Russian Orthodox Church have been ordained since the fall of communism, and so once again your generalization is just that, a prejudiced and useless statement.

 

On the other hand, large numbers of Roman Catholic bishops in America have been involved actively and passively in allowing the sex abuse of children.  I think the Russian Orthodox bishops look tame in comparison.  

 

Worst of all the Roman bishops did their acts without facing state organized persecution.

 

I find it interesting how often you go after Rome, her theology, her bishops (horrifying lot by the looks of 'em), etc and get no push back from Catholics here. This is not an attempt to start a fight, just find it a curious thing.

"Cooperation on moral issues is possible, although who knows where the
vast majority of Roman Catholic bishops will be on those issues in ten
or twenty years time.  The Roman Catholic Church is not used to state
organized persecution and it may cave in quickly.  Heck the Roman
hierarchs have been caving in to the secular culture and the state in
America for around 50 years now without any persecution."

 

And this I'd like to disagree with, but it's true.

 

Now tell us all about divorce, icons, and the pill in Orthodoxy. :)

[Apotheoun]

I find it interesting how often you go after Rome, her theology, her bishops (horrifying lot by the looks of 'em), etc and get no push back from Catholics here. This is not an attempt to start a fight, just find it a curious thing.

I see it from both sides, because I was a Roman Catholic for 18 years, and have been Byzantine Catholic for 8 years now.  As a Byzantine Catholic (Melkite) I have seen the impact of the Roman Church's ecclesial imperialism.  One of the Churches I attended while in the process of changing from one jurisdiction to another had only had an iconostasis for ten years, and that same parish (and all the others in its sui juris grouping) only restored the full mysteries of initiation to children two years after my ritual change of Churches was completed.  Rome tends to see itself as a standard, but it is only one apostolic Church among many, and the days during which the theory of praestantia ritus latini was passively accepted by Eastern Catholics are over.  

 

Eastern Catholics are restoring their traditions - some of which were lost due to forced Latinizations by the Roman Church, and some voluntarily suppressed in order to be more "catholic" - and sadly many Roman Catholics do not even know that their Church has acted in the past as a bully.  Why did Cardinal Keeler apologize to Eastern Catholics?  Because he knew the historical truth of the matter, which is that the Latin Church in America (and other places) forced its theology and discipline on Eastern Catholics.  An action that caused the conversion of more than half of all Eastern Catholics then living in the United States to Orthodoxy.  The apology was welcome, but a little late.

Postscript:  I defend Rome when it is doing the right thing, but I see no reason why a person cannot be critical of the pope or the Roman Curia when they are wrong.  That said, I hope that the pope speaks out on the "plan b" pill issue, and condemns any use of the drug.  

Edited February 22, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Evangetholic]

I find it interesting how often you go after Rome, her theology, her bishops (horrifying lot by the looks of 'em), etc and get no push back from Catholics here. This is not an attempt to start a fight, just find it a curious thing.

"Cooperation on moral issues is possible, although who knows where the
vast majority of Roman Catholic bishops will be on those issues in ten
or twenty years time.  The Roman Catholic Church is not used to state
organized persecution and it may cave in quickly.  Heck the Roman
hierarchs have been caving in to the secular culture and the state in
America for around 50 years now without any persecution."

 

And this I'd like to disagree with, but it's true.

 

Now tell us all about divorce, icons, and the pill in Orthodoxy. :)

 

The last sentence of this is not snark. Although I can see how someone might read it that way.
 

[Evangetholic]

I read a tremendous amount a pre-Vatican II material that and my grandmother's fixation on some visionary are why I came to phatmass. I can see how the Roman Church carried on an honestly abusive relationship with "the Uniates." I also can get an idea of what you mean about the loss of Eastern distinctiveness from my limited experience with Maronites. Still though, I have become what hopefully with God's grace I'll remain: a son of the Roman Church and a sword, men, heart, mind, and soul ready for the defense of the Papacy's Unique, August, and Universal role. A Papist in short.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Evangetholic

[Evangetholic]

I read a tremendous amount a pre-Vatican II material that and my grandmother's fixation on some visionary are why I came to phatmass. I can see how the Roman Church carried on an honestly abusive relationship with "the Uniates." I also can get an idea of what you mean about the loss of Eastern distinctiveness from my limited experience with Maronites. Still though, I have become what hopefully with God's grace I'll remain: a son of the Roman Church and a sword, men, heart, mind, and soul ready for the defense of the Papacy's Unique, August, and Universal role. A Papist in short.

 

Not at all certain what I mean by "men." Bah. I'm a Christian. The Bible says Christians are fools.

[mortify]

The vast majority of the hierarchs in the Russian Orthodox Church have been ordained since the fall of communism, and so once again your generalization is just that, a prejudiced and useless statement.

 

This would make sense if the Russian church swept out the hierarchy when the Soviet Union fell, instead the KGB collaborators and informants became heads of the church. The church is an institution of the state, defending Putin and being an extension of his beauracracy. The rulers of this ecclesiastical institution and new appointees must conform to the rules and customs. This is really no different than with what happens to traditional minded Catholic men who attempt going into an American seminary. The process of conformity is the same despite any time gap.

 

Patriarch Kirill by the way was estimated to possess a personal wealth of $4 billion dollars, how he came to obtain such vast wealth is another story.

 

On the other hand, large numbers of Roman Catholic bishops in America have been involved actively and passively in allowing the sex abuse of children.  I think the Russian Orthodox bishops look tame in comparison.  

 

Worst of all the Roman bishops did their acts without facing state organized persecution.

 

Yes this was a problem

 

Cooperation on moral issues is possible, although who knows where the vast majority of Roman Catholic bishops will be on those issues in ten or twenty years time.  The Roman Catholic Church is not used to state organized persecution and it may cave in quickly.  Heck the Roman hierarchs have been caving in to the secular culture and the state in America for around 50 years now without any persecution.

 

The Church in America has been attacked for quite some time. I think you forget that propaganda is to Democracy what force is to Tyranny, so sure the the Church has not faced physical persecution, but there has been an extremely heavy onslaught in the media, public education, and popular culture, all clandestinely guided by the state-corporate nexus. The casualties have been enormous but that is not to say the Church has succumb. There is still a very strong and vibrant remnant, keeping the pulse of the Church beating.

I find it interesting how often you go after Rome, her theology, her bishops (horrifying lot by the looks of 'em), etc and get no push back from Catholics here. This is not an attempt to start a fight, just find it a curious thing.

 

What you will discover is that most Roman Catholics are apathetic towards such things. It's a rather unique phenomena among ourselves, I've never seen such a lack of zeal among other religious folk or Christians of other denominational persuasions. 
 

[Apotheoun]

This would make sense if the Russian church swept out the hierarchy when the Soviet Union fell, instead the KGB collaborators and informants became heads of the church. The church is an institution of the state, defending Putin and being an extension of his beauracracy. The rulers of this ecclesiastical institution and new appointees must conform to the rules and customs. This is really no different than with what happens to traditional minded Catholic men who attempt going into an American seminary. The process of conformity is the same despite any time gap.

The same could have been said of the Church after the persecution carried out by Diocletian.  Clearly you would make an excellent Donatist.  

 

Evidently the hierarchs, most ordained since the fall of communism, and some, who - like Hilarion - was only 25 when the Soviet Union collapsed, did not agree with your assessment of Kirill.  Tough luck for those who share your opinion.  I suppose, since we know now that many hierarchs in Poland cooperated with the Communist authorities, that they should all have stepped down, but they didn't.  I guess it could also be argued that the vast majority of hierarchs in the American and European (especially Irish) Churches should step down because of their complicity in the sex abuse scandal, but so far they haven't done that, and nor has the Vatican taken any action to bring about that end.  In fact, the Vatican Curia has protected some of the worst hierarchs (e.g., Cardinal Law) by giving them positions that remove them from American jurisdiction.

 

It is interesting how some members of the Roman Church fail to see the beam in their own Church's eye, but they are more than ready to attack the Russian Church, which suffered more than 70 years of active persecution.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Apotheoun

[mortify]

The same could have been said of the Church after the persecution carried out by Diocletian.  Clearly you would make an excellent Donatist.  

 

Not at all, I'm not saying the Patriarch or Moscow and his ilk does not perform valid sacraments, rather I have little to no respect for him. And sadly, despite all his pompt and crimes against the Russian people, he has not apologized of made ammends, instead he continues to serve the same State institution that existed in the Soviet era.

 

 

Evidently the hierarchs, most ordained since the fall of communism, and some, who - like Hilarion - was only 25 when the Soviet Union collapsed, did not agree with your assessment of Kirill.  Tough luck for those who share your opinion.  I suppose, since we know now that many hierarchs in Poland cooperated with the Communist authorities, that they should all have stepped down, but they didn't.  I guess it could also be argued that the vast majority of hierarchs in the American and European (especially Irish) Churches should step down because of their complicity in the sex abuse scandal, but so far they haven't done that, and nor has the Vatican taken any action to bring about that end.  In fact, the Vatican Curia has protected some of the worst hierarchs (e.g., Cardinal Law) by giving them positions that remove them from American jurisdiction.

 

Polish Clerics who conspired with the Communist regime continued in their offices until the government exposed decades old files revealing who the collaborators were. You may recall the news of Warsaw's Archbishop Stanislaw Wielgus resigning hours before his inauguration Mass, admitting to his collaboration with the Communists. Kirill on the other hand gets a promotion to Patriarch and continues to rule.

 

It is interesting how some members of the Roman Church fail to see the beam in their own Church's eye, but they are more than ready to attack the Russian Church, which suffered more than 70 years of active persecution.

 

The same goes to you brother. But to make a distinction, I'm not attacking the people of sincere belief, rather I hold disdain for the hierarchs who assisted the Soviet regime against these same people, and all for the sake of profit.

[4588686]

It is interesting how some members of the Roman Church fail to see the beam in their own Church's eye, but they are more than ready to attack the Russian Church, which suffered more than 70 years of active persecution.

 

The Church Hierarchy was actively involved in providing moral legitimacy to one of the most despotic governments in the world for centuries before the Bolsheviks.  So it's a little hard to feel awful when that very Church hierarchy was subject to the same violence and arbitrary cruelty that it had surrendered its flock to for centuries and was actively doing so when the Bolsheviks seized power.  A lot of ordinary Russian faithful were also brutally persecuted and that is another matter entirely.  Moreover, the persecution was not continuous or even.  The good Priests were persecuted pretty badly.  But plenty of individuals like Krill were not persecuted because they were happy to collaborate with the authoritarian Soviet Union.  Stalin, being a good former seminarian, harnessed Russian nationalism and the Russian Church to drive Russians onwards during the Second World War and brought the Church back into the folds of power, a position the Church hierarchy was pretty happy to seize onto.  

[Selah]

It is interesting how some members of the Roman Church fail to see the beam in their own Church's eye, but they are more than ready to attack the Russian Church, which suffered more than 70 years of active persecution.

 

You mean how if someone criticizes the Roman Catholic Church it's "Anti-Catholic" but if it's the Orthodox Church or Eastern Catholics that are criticized, it's perfectly okay? 

 

I think Apo made a great point bringing up that example. Take the beam out of your own eye before your remove the speak in your brother's (this is just a general statement, not directed at you).