On Faith, Works, And Exactly What Business We Are To Be About

[Evangetholic]

This is a spinoff of three different conversations I'm having with Catholics (two on this website) about Church and State issues. Does the Catholic Church teach that men might be saved by leaving particular sins?  If faced with a man who drinks to excess, has sex with other men, shows reckless unconcern for the lives of others by speeding, and does not believe that Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, that He died for the remission of sins, and as a propitiation unto the Father that sinful humans might not die and burn in the Hell we deserve, then which of these problems are we to work on fixing? Moral correction, mayhap through the intervention of the entire apparatus of the State and its power to coerce or rather on the fact that this man is damned and powerless to save himself whether or not he walks away from his sins. Despite the title this is not actually about sinning Christians, but it's about non-believers. The answer to this has the gravest of implications for whether or not I dare and be reconciled to the Catholic Church.

And as an addendum is there a way to bock a user on this website?

[Lil Red]

you can put a user on ignore, and you won't see their posts unless you choose. additionally, you can block them from sending you messages. click on your name at the top of any page, then on "manage ignore prefs".

Edited February 18, 2013 by Lil Red

[Autumn Dusk]

There is alot of mercy in who does and dosn't go to Heaven.  There's also a more is given, more is expected thing going on.

 

Lets say your drunk man was raised in an atheist family and believed Christians were bad, and never had enough education or experience to encourage him to want to seek Christ.  However, said man reformed and tried to stay clean and help others with no knowledge of Christ.  This is a sort of Baptism of Desire and would gain him admission into heaven.

 

Similarly, if a person worshiped a false God (say buddah) and did it well and never knew of Christ, they would likely also go to Heaven due to Baptism of desire...he was living a good Christly life, but he didn't know it.

 

If said drunk man was pretty much a reprehensible human but then jumped in front of a train to save an nun, despite his hatred of the church and died, he would be a canadate for Baptisim of blood as he died doing a noble act.

 

If the same man died in a car accident, still full of drunken rage he may or may not make it to Heaven, it's "too close" for us to call.  Perhaps that man was physically, emotionally or mentally damaged in such a way that he could not comprehend what he was doing.

[Byzantine]

If said drunk man was pretty much a reprehensible human but then jumped in front of a train to save an nun, despite his hatred of the church and died, he would be a canadate for Baptisim of blood as he died doing a noble act.

 

Wait, doesn't blood only apply if it's martyrdom?

[Autumn Dusk]

Wait, doesn't blood only apply if it's martyrdom?

 

Blood applies to any death done for the greater Glory of God from my understanding.

[Amppax]

There is alot of mercy in who does and dosn't go to Heaven.  There's also a more is given, more is expected thing going on.

 

Lets say your drunk man was raised in an atheist family and believed Christians were bad, and never had enough education or experience to encourage him to want to seek Christ.  However, said man reformed and tried to stay clean and help others with no knowledge of Christ.  This is a sort of Baptism of Desire and would gain him admission into heaven.

 

Similarly, if a person worshiped a false God (say buddah) and did it well and never knew of Christ, they would likely also go to Heaven due to Baptism of desire...he was living a good Christly life, but he didn't know it.

 

If said drunk man was pretty much a reprehensible human but then jumped in front of a train to save an nun, despite his hatred of the church and died, he would be a canadate for Baptisim of blood as he died doing a noble act.

 

If the same man died in a car accident, still full of drunken rage he may or may not make it to Heaven, it's "too close" for us to call.  Perhaps that man was physically, emotionally or mentally damaged in such a way that he could not comprehend what he was doing.

 

Autumn, we can't know who does and doesn't go to heaven.  Yes both Baptism of Desire and Blood are legitimate hopes, but I don't think they can be extended as freely as you are saying.  All we can really do is pray and trust in God's mercy, and that it is his desire that all will be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4).