Penence In Rl That May Harm.....

[maximillion]

I have just noticed a post in another thread pertaining to Religious ( Sisters) doing penance on their knees.

Now, I was in community only 14 years, and we often knelt on bare boards, I know Carmelites do, as do other communities as a matter of course.....

Since I am now in my 60's and had my left knee replaced six years ago, and the other has just given up and will need to be replaced very soon, and my Orthopeadic surgeon puts this down to those years spent on bare boards, what do others think?

 

Ought we to ban those practices which may damage some sisters/brothers joints?

[Rosary]

If a sister has physical problems that prohibit her from doing the standard penance isn't that something she should speak to her superiors about so the penance can be modified if need be?

[maximillion]

I am not speaking of those who have an existing problem when they enter, I am speaking of someone who enters having no  problems and who acquires them as a direct result of the practices of the particular community.

I was perfectly healthy and with no knee damage when I entered, as are most people.

[Sister Marie]

I think there is a balance needed in being protective of our health while also spending ourselves in God's service.  In every style of life there are things that we do to our bodies that cause damage.  These are our earthly bodies and, although we should take care of them, we must know that they will "wear out" in the end one way or another.  (I say this as someone who has some parts wearing out earlier than they should be so I do understand what you are saying!) 

 

I do agree with you that communities may need to reevaluate as their members age some of the physical practices that may have truly been unnecessary to the life and injurious to the member and then change these practices.  There is a temptation though when there is an over-concern with health that it takes a greater role in decision making than it should.  We are all sinners in religious life after all and we can take things too far and make them into "idols" over our true goal of Heaven (and our resurrected bodies!).

 

In addition to this its important to remember that physical penances are usually much easier to do than true penance in the heart; denying one's desire to have one's way, accepting failure and disappointment, being criticized or corrected, quieting the inner voice that criticizes others, being generous to someone one dislikes... These are all much more difficult to achieve than kneeling for a half hour and they are effective penances in all states of life. 

[Antigonos]

Well, speaking as a nurse, I think it would be pretty hard to prove that the bare boards were exclusively the cause of orthopedic problems.  I've had a hip replaced, and have arthritis in my knees but I've never done any amount of kneeling anywhere.  There are all sorts of factors responsible, including genetic predisposition, for arthritis.  It probably could be argued that nuns, who lead physically active lives and eat diets which are probably healthier than most of us, heavy on the vegetables and light on meat products, don't smoke or drink alcohol, would be less likely to suffer from degenerative illnesses in old age.  But who knows for sure?

[nikita92]

Well...I blew out both my ACL's years ago...and re-tore my right knee last Jan-2012 (from slipping in the snow on a side walk and July I jumped up -like in basketball and came down on it and popped it..again) it's not that I wouldn't want to do some form of penance...it's just that being down on them for a period would #1 would be distracting to focus FULLY on our Lord..when my knees are barking loudly..#2- getting back up and moving around to normal, would take some time for readjusting..with help of Ibuprofen. I would certainly tell a community that my knees has less stability.. And hopefully it wouldn't be to much of a issue for them. Mother Angelica had knee issues as well in her early years. She found a way to continue in her community.

[Chiara Francesco]

There are many Carmels that have a "kneeling policy", for lack of a better term - and these are good and strict 1990s who know the impact of kneeling over the long term on knees and backs.  If anyone wants the names of these Carmels, they can message me privately.  Some I've seen are:

 

1.  You kneel the first and last 5 mins of each of the 2 hours of mental prayer and for the middle 50 mins, you either use: a prayer stool, stand, a combination of kneeling and prayer stool (or standing) or for sisters with problems or age you use the choir stall.

 

2. You use a prayer stool with padding (the sisters use a padding that comes in some box they have delivered to the monastery - supplies, etc. - that the company uses to pack the items - so even on a prayer stool the knees/knee caps aren't with any pressure on a hard surface.

 

3. One Carmel has the nuns in their stalls and don't use prayer stools at all.  Or the sisters could stand or knee for a while.

 

4. Another excellent 1990 Carmel said that if a nun was kneeling on her knees in pain, that is NOT a good an fruitful conversation with God if one is in pain, can't focus all her attention on God and is too busy watching the clock and asking herself, "When is this OVER?!"  So they to have kneeling options.

 

But no one can or SHOULD try to ban a religious orders practices!  That's like Obama and the government trying to control our lives now!  It's one thing to try and stop an order from having a real, bloody discipline or something! but quite another about he kneeling!

 

In my many visits and discernment with Carmels, Poor Clares Colettines and a Dominican monastery of nuns (and they told me of other communities they knew of either from their associations they were in or just in other communication), they ALL had some sort of kneeling practices for the sisters.

 

I have a slightly bum right knee from 15 years of ballet training and knee injuries and a Carmelite prioress of a 1990 Carmel told me that "a bad knee was no impediment to a Carmelite vocation."

 

 

And Antigonos is right to some degree too.  I, too, am a nurse and know what she wrote is true but excessive kneeling HAS been proven to cause the patella to become misshapen and to cause back problems.

 

I know of a 82 yr old Carmelite nun who STILL kneels to this day for 2 hrs every day in mental prayer and is spry and energetic as a 18 yr old!  AND her knees are in great shape!  So it's as factor of lots of things - besides God's will for the person!

[Pax_et bonum]

I agree with what others have said and just wanted to add that we hurt our bodies for much less reasons. I was a cheerleader and did tumbling (like gymnastics) for that. My body is worse for the wear, but I was lucky to not get injured like some of my friends. There were a few girls on my squad who had been in gymnastics since they could walk, and they have so many issues. Football players with their head injuries. Runners with their leg, knee, ankle problems--I have a teenage friend who had to spend time in a wheel chair from running cross country. People starving themselves thin or eating themselves fat. Smoking, drugs, excessive alcohol. I guess I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Our bodies wear down and wear out, and kneeling isn't the worst way we can hurt them. We need to take care of our bodies, but we can't prevent all issues.

[maximillion]

Hmmm, good points and I appreciate them all.

 

I wanted to raise a discussion more than actually propose a ban. I am interested to hear of the 'kneeling policies', my community didn't have one and must admit that on reflection we novices were permitted a bit of pride in trying to outdo each other in some of the more physical practices. This changed when a younger NM was appointed and she cut our arrogance down to size!

[Antigonos]

In an Israeli film about the community in Bet Jamal [near Bethlehem], sisters were shown at prayer in the chapel either kneeling, sitting, or sort of "folded up" on the floor [rather like the Muslim prostrate prayer position but a little to one side] in a position of humility. So I guess certain communities have a "do pretty much your own thing as long as it's reverential" policy to lengthy prayer sessions.  And I suppose, when one is in full habit, the layers of fabric do cushion the knees somewhat.

 

But certain lifestyles do predispose to certain medical conditions.  I've never met a nurse of mature years who didn't have a bad back.  Taxi and bus drivers are prone to hemorrhoids, etc.

[Renee the Nunnabe]

All lifestyles have their drawbacks.  

 

I messed up both of my knees running. I messed up one knee wrestling (fell wrong, something in it popped). I wore a knee brace, but things like compacted cartilage and torn ligaments just don't go back to normal, especially when the activity that caused the damage is continued. In my case, I continued the activities. Even though I had frightening experiences of not being able to walk for the pain in my knees, I kept going. It was the smart decision to make -- I could have avoided some of the permanent damage to my knees if I had allowed myself time to recover. I still feel the pain from these injuries, and lately, I've been feeling it more than usual.  

 

We can try to lower the amount of harm that occurs, but harm is going to occur, regardless of whether we kneel or not. I do think it's important to have allowances in place and to make sure that penance doesn't cause undue harm, but to get rid of kneeling altogether? I would think that unnecessary.  

[FutureSister2009]

I'm worried that I'll eventually mess up my knees from Stations of the Cross. Up and down and up and down. We refer to them as Catholic aerobics here at school

[BarbTherese]

It can be a very real penance to not be able for some reason to perform acts of penance.  Accepting this with Peace and serenity and trust in God can probably be just as difficult as if one had the necessary health to perform some penance itself.

 

Psalm 50 "For if thou hadst desired sacrifice, I would indeed have given it: with burnt
offerings thou wilt not be delighted. [19] A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and
humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise"

 

Lent is a a time when I feel the limitations of my health in a particular manner - and also a time when my heart is deeply moved to contrition and humility - trust in God and His Loving Mercy on His least.  What I need regularly address is a suspicion that I use my health to avoid difficult penance during a time of year focusing on penance.  My constant refuge is trust in The Lord's Loving Mercy on His least and then to do what I can without possibly compromising health - trustfully.  We should look after our health and life - and also to avoid if it is possible becoming a burden on others, and out of Loving Charity and concern for the other. 

I would think that probably those who can do the more difficult penances just might need to struggle at times with spiritual pride and self satisfaction.

But then human nature as it is in its fallen state can be constantly creating damned if I do and if I dont situations.  Struggling with some fault or faults if I do undertake difficult penance, and equally struggling with fault or faults if I dont.  This reminds me of what St Paul said " [24] Unhappy man that I
am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] The grace of God, by
Jesus Christ our Lord.(Romans Ch7)

I think that probably my heart will be indeed quite restless until Heaven.

[Eowyn]

I'm worried that I'll eventually mess up my knees from Stations of the Cross. Up and down and up and down. We refer to them as Catholic aerobics here at school

 

I'm a convert and I distinctly remember feeling like I was going to die the first time I did Stations of the Cross.   :) :) :)  I don't even think twice now. 

[nikita92]

I want and do kneel ! Do not want to ever have that ever removed in any way! Not to say I couldn't be on them...just getting back up..can be somewhat difficult, causing stiffness etc. I have never elected not to kneel! Thank you Chiara F for your insight and info!