A Strange And Rather Personal Topic.

[MarysLittleFlower]

Just my twopenny worth...

 

I associate kissing the feet of the crucifix/image of Jesus/ more with humility and reverence.

I associate kissing a cross/image/crucifix/Corpus any other place ( face, body, heart) with passion/compassion/and as being more spousal.

Having belonged to a community devoted to the Sacred Heart our liturgy,  little sayings etc were full of this imagery,  we were encouraged to rest in His Heart, to offer consolation to His Most Sacred Heart and embrace It fully, and images were everywhere in the community, images which were kissed, touched, and venerated in all sorts of ways.

Our pectoral cross had a raised emblem which was His Heart and it was common to see a Sister with her fingers tracing this as she was in prayer or at other times. My own fingers knew every single crevice and line and we kissed the Heart on our crosses several times daily as part of worship.

I agree, and that is beautiful :) I've always loved the Sacred Heart devotion. :heart:

[MarysLittleFlower]

I haven't had any permanent experience as a religious sister or anything (yet), but, ahh my very little love for Him makes me kiss Him on the Feet. Though I must say, I love St Therese - she is so simple, and you certainly sound a lot like her in your good intentions. I personally think that if one is humble and one loves, one should do to the Lord as one who is humble but one that love Him so much. Don't be afraid, don't be scrupulous. He knows and loves you as a dear friend, a brother, the Lord. 

'Love and do what you will'

 

I think that is a good point about humility and love :) I can be scrupulous. I'd love to be more like St Therese! :) still a long way to go ;)

[MarysLittleFlower]

There isn't any protocol for such things. It is personal, thus do what is in your heart!

That's good to know! :)

[BarbTherese]

 BarbaraTherese, thanks for the reply! :) I agree with you about what love is.. I think that love is more than feelings, it's union yes and also loving when we go through difficulties/temptations/trials etc. I see that in St Therese, I think, when she loved God so greatly despite going through her spiritual trial and illness! Or when people go through the dark night of the senses/the dark night of  the soul. And then it's more about faith, I agree with you :)

 

Maybe because I'm still new (I became Catholic a few years ago) I still have to learn this more deeply and in greater ways :) I can be very weak, I think without consolations there would have been times when I would have given up. So I'm grateful to Jesus for that :) it's beautiful when people love Him without any consolations. Apparently for many people in the beginning, they experience these emotions just to help them open up to God more, to come closer to Him, etc, and then He removes the feeling of His presence a bit so we can learn how to love more selflessly ?

 

MLF, I have been a Catholic all my life, raised in a Catholic family and Catholic educated by nuns all my life - I am still the weakest of the weak and need consolations to keep going.  St Teresa of Avila stated that consolations of all kinds are sent by The Lord to support us in our weakness.  I suffer Bipolar Disorder and hence my feelings may wax and wane between joy and lack of joy more than most perhaps and I have learnt that the path of Faith and whatThe Church teaches is a safer path for me than my waxing and waning emotional life.

 

 

 Apparently for many people in the beginning, they experience these emotions just to help them open up to God more, to come closer to Him, etc, and then He removes the feeling of His presence a bit so we can learn how to love more selflessly ?

 

Spot on to my mind, although why God removes positive emotions in our spiritual life, even any awareness of His Presence cannot be known for sure in individual cases.  However, in every single case, we can be sure that He is always doing the very best for one and absolutely mysteriously (defies human logic) at the very same time this is what is best for the whole universe and salvation of mankind at the same time.  Nothing can ever happen - not ever - that His Grace and Love and support is far greater than any trial or difficulty.  If I fail in some way, then I have failed His Grace, Love and support.  We were conceived sinners and sinners we remain until death and "sinner" is exactly what it states.

 

God bless you!

 

Edit:  I dont know if I have read all posts in this thread - and if I have a very poor memory often lets me down.  You would really profit from seeking out a good spiritual director as would we all.  Pope Benedict not all that long ago recommended spiritual direction for all, including laity.   I am blest many times over in my director.

Edited March 13, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

 BarbaraTherese, thanks for the reply! :) I agree with you about what love is.. I think that love is more than feelings, it's union yes and also loving when we go through difficulties/temptations/trials etc. I see that in St Therese, I think, when she loved God so greatly despite going through her spiritual trial and illness! Or when people go through the dark night of the senses/the dark night of  the soul. And then it's more about faith, I agree with you :)

 

Maybe because I'm still new (I became Catholic a few years ago) I still have to learn this more deeply and in greater ways :) I can be very weak, I think without consolations there would have been times when I would have given up. So I'm grateful to Jesus for that :) it's beautiful when people love Him without any consolations. Apparently for many people in the beginning, they experience these emotions just to help them open up to God more, to come closer to Him, etc, and then He removes the feeling of His presence a bit so we can learn how to love more selflessly ?

 

MLF, I have been a Catholic all my life, raised in a Catholic family and Catholic educated by nuns all my life - I am still the weakest of the weak and need consolations to keep going.  St Teresa of Avila stated that consolations of all kinds are sent by The Lord to support us in our weakness.  I suffer Bipolar Disorder and hence my feelings may wax and wane between joy and lack of joy more than most perhaps and I have learnt that the path of Faith and whatThe Church teaches is a safer path for me than my waxing and waning emotional life.

 

 Apparently for many people in the beginning, they experience these emotions just to help them open up to God more, to come closer to Him, etc, and then He removes the feeling of His presence a bit so we can learn how to love more selflessly ?

 

Spot on to my mind, although why God removes positive emotions in our spiritual life, even any awareness of His Presence cannot be known for sure in individual cases.  However, in every single case, we can be sure that He is always doing the very best for one and absolutely mysteriously (defies human logic) at the very same time this is what is best for the whole universe and salvation of mankind at the same time.  Nothing can ever happen - not ever - that His Grace and Love and support is far greater than any trial or difficulty.  If I fail in some way, then I have failed His Grace, Love and support.  We were conceived sinners and sinners we remain until death and "sinner" is exactly what it states.

 

God bless you!

[BarbTherese]

Sorry, previous post is a duplicate and my edit facility has time out :wall:

[MarysLittleFlower]

No worries! :) Maybe I needed to read it twice ;) heheh. I think with me, since I can be scrupulous and get confused/worried easily, my emotions are also often not reliable at all. I tend to focus on my emotions too much. Of course, I'm thankful for the times when God gives me clarity and peace! Who knows where I'd be without His help in this way.

 

Interesting I just came across a quote by St Padre Pio. He said he would be glad to carry crosses but the cross of being uncertain if one's actions/etc (I forgot..) are pleasing to the Lord, is almost unendurable. It seems this was a trial and a cross that God allowed him to bear for a reason. I see that sometimes God doesn't take away the interior difficulties we face, which are most painful when we also feel far from God! I don't mean because we need to repent of something or pray more, but if it's a trial.

 

About all that I posted before, I've been thinking more about it... I've noticed that when it's less about me, and when I think more about Him, like - venerating His images in reparation for sin - I think that's a good thing to do... I hope that this is something, that pleases Jesus. I was thinking, though, what happens when we venerate images? Is it alright to think, that when we kiss a picture of Jesus, He receives that in some way? Or is it just respecting an image of Him?

 

I think what kind of worried me is when - not just with this, but in general, one's feeling towards Our Lord could be more 'spousal' or intimate, not only as our Lord and Saviour and God (who He is, absolutely :)) and not even Friend (who He is :)) but also - like our Beloved, and who we give ourselves to totally. I understand the spiritual component and how spiritual experiences become more and more spiritual as a person grows (is this correct?). But the emotions are involved too, maybe not always in every case, but at times. And I think it's the emotional aspect that sort of frightened me a little, because I was afraid, - am I being reverent? But I don't want to distrust Him either. Jesus is so loving and we shouldn't be cold with Him, that would just hurt Him. But I felt conflicted about all this. I'm not sure if this makes any sense. And then with venerating the images, - my question regarding that, - it seems related somehow. So I don't mean if there are some sort of temptations - that's obvious... I mean when the thoughts/emotions aren't malicious in intent. But I've found that thinking more of Him, and loving Him, reparation, etc, and thinking more of how Jesus feels than how we feel, that's very good and also makes it all more loving, less about us. It also makes it harder to ever be tempted to something incorrect.

 

Hmm.. I'm not sure if ANY of this makes sense, but here it is :) I think He wants us to be close to Him, and trusting! thinking more of Him and less of me helped me with the question.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I just read over what I posted and it might be totally unclear what I mean. I don't know. Here's a little illustration :)

 

Let's say... you are thinking what it would be like to meet Jesus, face to face. We know Him, and we can receive Him in the Eucharist, and this is an incredible thing. But you would love to see Him someday, and you think about how He is so loving, and beautiful, and how He means the most to you in the whole world but you can't see Him yet. What would you do when you see Him? Maybe, you would fall down and kiss His feet. Probably you'd cry. But you'd also like to just spend time with Him, and to rest from all the trials that you have. Maybe it's more about Him and you're thinking about how so few love Him, and you've loved Him too little, and you consider His sufferings, and would want to communicate your love and thanksgiving to Him. And because you love Him, you want to be near Him. You think what could it be like, if you could embrace Jesus, and kiss His Heart, and His Holy Face... and you have this longing to be close to Him. Of course in Heaven, it would be greater than anything we can imagine, but it would also be union with Him. Since you can't see Jesus right now, you think, maybe you can kiss an image of Him. But because of all the things you were thinking about before, and especially if you're really longing to meet Jesus, it all kind of becomes more emotional than simply if you were venerating an image with no prior thoughts. But let's say you're a little bit afraid, wondering if this is okay and if you can even think of doing such things when you meet Jesus. Especially, having been such a sinner, though a repentant one. (though He is not at all impersonal or cold, and accepts sinners, like the woman with the perfume jar in the Gospels...but you're still wondering if what you imagined isn't a bit bold of you).

 

hmmm.. what do we do with that? of course regarding individual people, etc, I understand it's best to pray and speak to a spiritual director. I just mean, in general.

Edited March 13, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[BarbTherese]

Such a lot in your posts, MLF - but to date, for me, I have not read anything at all disturbing to me.  It is a beautiful matter and a great gift indeed to fall completely in love with Jesus in a quite human sort of way - and no matter what other people may think or say (very often, for some. expressions of affection by others for another can be personally disturbing), Jesus well knows your heart and would love you dearly for your beautiful expressions of great love and affection."Man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart" (lst Book of Kings/lst Book Samuel - Ch 16, v7). 

 

It is quite normal I would think and especially for those that do love Jesus passionately, to have a desire to be able to actually see Him in His human self and to be able to touch, embrace and speak with Him. 

 

These are my personal general thoughts. As I have said before, a good spiritual director would be of great assistance to you and a good director is pure gold, a treasure, on the spiritual journey.  Jesus, The Lord, is always more at great pains to be Lovingly Merciful than to ever be stern, judgemental and moralistic which is contrary to His Nature, which is Love.  I like to say that the Justice of God is like fire and His Mercy, like water quenching that fire.  Jesus, in His Divine Justice, knows well that we are weak and from birth marked by original sin and thus by our fallen nature, i.e. our humanity, to be more likely wrong than right.  "Sin" is taken from Greek and means "to miss the mark" (Catholic Newman Centre HERE ) and our mark is holiness.  The nun that taught me used to say that it is not so much our failures, as to fail to repent and go on once recognizing that we have failed.

If we are amiss anywhere at all and do not recognize this, we can trust in Jesus to set us straight in His Way and in His Time. And if I do not realize that I am wrong, there can be no serious sin separating me from Him.  JOY!  What a God of Loving Mercy have we!

[BarbTherese]

Do not be afraid of your emotions, positive or negative, for our emotions in part only tell us who we are.  Recognize and accept your emotions.  Superior to our emotional self however is our willing self, or the choices we make and carry through. The choices we make about our emotions and then carry those choices through into action. Certainly do not be afriad of your feelings of great love, especially if you are striving to love The Lord and neighbour for love of Him.  As Jesus has told us "how can you say you love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see".  Love of God is witnessed to by love of neighbour.

[BarbTherese]

I think of unity with Jesus as being the unity of my spirit with His, to be one in spirit with Jesus, to strive with Grace to live my life here and now on earth with Grace exactly as I think Jesus would live it (and in this there are probably many grades of perfection, finally perfected only in Heaven, after all Heaven is a part of our life too)- as St Paul says "I must decrease, He must increase"HERE ...............and........."I live now, not I, but Christ lives in me" HERE

 

Woop! It was John The Baptist, Gospel of John, who said "he must increase, I must decrease"

 

Sorry for so many posts

Edited March 13, 2013 by BarbaraTherese

[God's Beloved]

Do not be afraid of your emotions, positive or negative, for our emotions in part only tell us who we are.  Recognize and accept your emotions.  Superior to our emotional self however is our willing self, or the choices we make and carry through. The choices we make about our emotions and then carry those choices through into action. Certainly do not be afriad of your feelings of great love, especially if you are striving to love The Lord and neighbour for love of Him.  As Jesus has told us "how can you say you love God whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see".  Love of God is witnessed to by love of neighbour.

 

Authentic devotion to our Lord Jesus is proved by the fruit it produces in our lives and how Intimacy with Him helps one to become more compassionate and loving towards neighbour.

 

The following encyclical by Benedict XVI is worth reflecting upon : Deus Caritas Est

 

www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

 

I think true Intimacy with Jesus leads to the 'Fear of the Lord' . As we grow in the journey of union with Him throughout our lives , day after day, this love gets seasoned. As it is between a married man and woman,  the initial phase of their life together  is usually immersed in feelings , sensual pleasure etc. But as their love matures , the feelings become less and less and the love increases more and more. It becomes stronger, faithful, deeper and less banal. By that time they usually have children and the love moves from Eros to become one with  Agape , thus moving out of self-centeredness to  embrace the human family.

 

At the Resurrection of the body and Life everlasting , we will be united completely with God . But the best analogy would be the communion of the Holy Eucharist. Both flesh and spirit thirst for God  whether one is married or unmarried. Finally only God is the infinite Love who quenches the thirst. It is true that the love between  a man and a woman is the best metaphor capable of describing the love of God for humanity. But  it can be easy for a devotee to slip into sensuality to such an extent that it leads to  unhealthy dreaming, selfishness , pride. For those discerning a vocation to a celibate life , this 'could be' a sign of a call to the sacrament of marriage instead.

 

These are delicate matters in the spiritual life.

 

the following book  gives a critique that's worth reflecting upon.

 

books.google.co.in/books/about/The_Bride_of_Christ_Goes_to_Hell.html?id=nVzUCiR-BGgC&redir_esc=y

[Indwelling Trinity]

It took me years of religious life to figure this cunundrum out. Meaning  having chaste/reverential while at the same time. spousal intimate emotional expression of my love as a woman and as nun vowed to Gos as is spouse. And like you i was too shy to bring it up as as topic with my superiors and confessors. Then on day i was writing to someone  and while writing the answer simple hit me on the head. "BONK" and that was, "there can be no true chaste love unless one is capable of affective love also."  Meaning i bring all who i am before God in homage to him and return for his wonderful gifts as i am and how me made me. He made me a woman called  by name. Whats wrong if i kiss Jesus? I am his and He is mine thedough the great grace of

 

I am fist human, then woman, then Catholic, then religious in that order. And that i how i now relate to God

[MarysLittleFlower]

Authentic devotion to our Lord Jesus is proved by the fruit it produces in our lives and how Intimacy with Him helps one to become more compassionate and loving towards neighbour.

 

The following encyclical by Benedict XVI is worth reflecting upon : Deus Caritas Est

 

www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

 

I think true Intimacy with Jesus leads to the 'Fear of the Lord' . As we grow in the journey of union with Him throughout our lives , day after day, this love gets seasoned. As it is between a married man and woman,  the initial phase of their life together  is usually immersed in feelings , sensual pleasure etc. But as their love matures , the feelings become less and less and the love increases more and more. It becomes stronger, faithful, deeper and less banal. By that time they usually have children and the love moves from Eros to become one with  Agape , thus moving out of self-centeredness to  embrace the human family.

 

At the Resurrection of the body and Life everlasting , we will be united completely with God . But the best analogy would be the communion of the Holy Eucharist. Both flesh and spirit thirst for God  whether one is married or unmarried. Finally only God is the infinite Love who quenches the thirst. It is true that the love between  a man and a woman is the best metaphor capable of describing the love of God for humanity. But  it can be easy for a devotee to slip into sensuality to such an extent that it leads to  unhealthy dreaming, selfishness , pride. For those discerning a vocation to a celibate life , this 'could be' a sign of a call to the sacrament of marriage instead.

 

These are delicate matters in the spiritual life.

 

the following book  gives a critique that's worth reflecting upon.

 

books.google.co.in/books/about/The_Bride_of_Christ_Goes_to_Hell.html?id=nVzUCiR-BGgC&redir_esc=y

I agree that we shouldn't slip into sensuality... I think a remedy could be focusing on loving God rather than our feelings :) however, is thinking of kissing Jesus, always sensuality? (I think not?) because it can be done in a way that is focused on reparation, rather than us feeling anything... and it can be pure.... just thinking aloud here :) I think if people do feel something too sensual or even impure, that might mean they're called to marriage, but it could also just come from the fact that our bodies can sometimes confuse spiritual consolations for something else if we are not purified enough - I remember reading about this in some spiritual book like St John of the Cross or St Teresa of Avila! Then as a person is purified more, it becomes more fully spiritual and there's no longer this concern :) But I see that really purified saintly people (like the Saints!) could kiss and embrace Jesus so I'm sure it can be in a non sensual way too? but still spousal and intimate... I guess it depends on various things!

Edited March 19, 2013 by MarysLittleFlower

[MarysLittleFlower]

It took me years of religious life to figure this cunundrum out. Meaning  having chaste/reverential while at the same time. spousal intimate emotional expression of my love as a woman and as nun vowed to Gos as is spouse. And like you i was too shy to bring it up as as topic with my superiors and confessors. Then on day i was writing to someone  and while writing the answer simple hit me on the head. "BONK" and that was, "there can be no true chaste love unless one is capable of affective love also."  Meaning i bring all who i am before God in homage to him and return for his wonderful gifts as i am and how me made me. He made me a woman called  by name. Whats wrong if i kiss Jesus? I am his and He is mine thedough the great grace of

 

I am fist human, then woman, then Catholic, then religious in that order. And that i how i now relate to God

 

I didn't realize that others have this question too! :) thanks for the post :)

 

That's basically my question too, how do i make sure my relationship with Jesus is chaste/reverent while also intimate. I believe that the idea of kissing Jesus could be something pure if the focus is correct, it helps me to focus on Him and not on myself! it can be affective and pure at the same time :) I think it might be difficult for a person to figure it out until they are perfectly purified.