Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Peace Evan and your free to believe that. And fear of God is a healthy thing. I've had that in my life and its something I'm thankful for. Yet at the same time I know the God who has loved me and showed me an infinitie amount of grace. I know this is not the kind of God who would send MOST men to hell to BURN. Not when he has purgatory that can do the same thing and in turn cleanse a soul and purify them. Some will go to hell for the simple fact they want to be there with every fiber of their being. But when people start saying most will go there I can't get on board with that. Its not the God I know and love. I guess its possible but I would put my money on it being the other way around. Edited February 21, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I worship a different God than you because I disagree with you on this? (shades of Evangelicalism) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 lol Ok well you and Augustine can believe most are going to hell and Christ just came and suffered the way He did for the select few...I in noway think all will be saved although its possible. I have a friendship with a loving God so i don't think most will burn but you are free to go on thinking that is the case... I will continue to trust in Christ and His words. He would not have repeated Himself multiple times with such clear authority if He did not mean what He stated. No. Catholicism does not regard the means as being justified through the end. AND there isn't a theological certitude as to what happens when babies die. Babies who die without baptism go to Limbo or Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 salvation is not a math problem, souls cannot be plugged into equations as numbers. it just doesn't work that way. the logic of math is applicable to the physical universe, but it is infinitely and impossibly inferior to the realities of the spiritual world. to our Lord, a single soul in hell is WAY too many, it is a heart shattering disaster to Him, for His love for every single individual is so infinite that the heartbreak of a single soul in hell is worse than we mortals could possibly imagine. anything less than 100% of the souls He has created is too FEW for Him. If there was just one single soul in hell and all the rest went to Heaven, Our Lord could still have said that the road to hell was broad and the path to heaven narrow, that few are saved. Think of the parable of the Lost Sheep, our Lord does not apply any kind of mathematics to souls, a single soul is worth as much to Him as the whole universe, the infiniteness of His love breaks down and defies any logic of math and numbers (you can't exactly do normal arithmetic with infinity, really, there can't really be one infinity (in this philosophical sense) that is greater than less than or in any way comparable to another infinity). Another reason why the OP scenario is completely unfathomable, and certainly a reason that one could imagine a depopulated Hell. I do not believe it makes sense to say that no human has gone to hell, but it is theologically possible to imagine few in Hell and many in Heaven, but we cannot know either way with certitude and we know that the path to hell is broad and easy and the path to heaven is narrow, and that we should have a healthy degree of fear of hell built into our natural love of Our Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Knight: Oh yes, yes it's clear that they don't go to HELL. DB: Does Jesus say things just to frighten people? Edited February 21, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) . Edited February 21, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Y'all are still talking limbo hahaha I'm out...Godbless every1 and have a great Lent...Evan does Jesus say things to frighten people ? I'm not sure his ways and thoughts are above mine....And also I never said we worshiped different Gods....I only said I don't see and know God the way some1 like Augustine did...Peace n Godbless...Great Post Aloysius...Godbless you mate...My all time favorite poster at Phatmass... Edited February 21, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Y'all are still talking limbo hahaha I'm out...Godbless every1 and have a great Lent...Evan does Jesus say things to frighten people ? I'm not sure his ways and thoughts are above mine....And also I never said we worshiped different Gods....I only said I don't see and know God the way some1 like Augustine did...Peace n Godbless... Great Post Aloysius...Godbless you mate...My all time favorite poster at Phatmass... Attacking the Saints can be gravely immoral, which would endanger you immortal soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) DB: Do you believe Aloysius to have said something I haven't said? lol O.o (I kid you, go in peace.) Edited February 22, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 salvation is not a math problem, souls cannot be plugged into equations as numbers. it just doesn't work that way. the logic of math is applicable to the physical universe, but it is infinitely and impossibly inferior to the realities of the spiritual world. to our Lord, a single soul in hell is WAY too many, it is a heart shattering disaster to Him, for His love for every single individual is so infinite that the heartbreak of a single soul in hell is worse than we mortals could possibly imagine. anything less than 100% of the souls He has created is too FEW for Him. If there was just one single soul in hell and all the rest went to Heaven, Our Lord could still have said that the road to hell was broad and the path to heaven narrow, that few are saved. Think of the parable of the Lost Sheep, our Lord does not apply any kind of mathematics to souls, a single soul is worth as much to Him as the whole universe, the infiniteness of His love breaks down and defies any logic of math and numbers (you can't exactly do normal arithmetic with infinity, really, there can't really be one infinity (in this philosophical sense) that is greater than less than or in any way comparable to another infinity). Another reason why the OP scenario is completely unfathomable, and certainly a reason that one could imagine a depopulated Hell. I do not believe it makes sense to say that no human has gone to hell, but it is theologically possible to imagine few in Hell and many in Heaven, but we cannot know either way with certitude and we know that the path to hell is broad and easy and the path to heaven is narrow, and that we should have a healthy degree of fear of hell built into our natural love of Our Lord. I believe He meant an actual few in comparison to the many. The Church is often called a Remnant in comparison to the wicked world. Or an Ark carrying but a few in a ocean while the many wicked outside perish, or a light in a wicked world of darkness. I have no idea about the math or actual numbers of the few or the many. But I believe it's right to believe Christ meant few will be saved in comparison to those that will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 You sound rather like this: Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: “Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding.†Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I'm not attacking Augstine...Godbless Him....I just don't agree with his God will save a few point of view...That's not attacking him saying I don't agree with him...Although thanks for pointing that out as I should be careful with my words....Godbless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't say that you're wrong, Knight, but I also don't condemn Von Balthasar on the other end of the spectrum. the Church and the faithful on earth are certainly a remnant in a sea of wretchedness and despair, but the wonders of the next life are beyond our comprehension and there is something great planned by God in the balance of final justice and mercy that no matter what the numbers are, or the circumstances, will remake all things and it will all be sorted out. the eternal eschatological end of this whole thing will probably blow our minds, and I'm willing to allow for the "dare we hope" faith and trust that could inspire a marvelous result. but there is always an urgentness to our mission to bring souls to Christ and His Church, an urgentness inspired by the fact that the road to hell is broad and easy and it is a narrow road that leads to salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I don't say that you're wrong, Knight, but I also don't condemn Von Balthasar on the other end of the spectrum. the Church and the faithful on earth are certainly a remnant in a sea of wretchedness and despair, but the wonders of the next life are beyond our comprehension and there is something great planned by God in the balance of final justice and mercy that no matter what the numbers are, or the circumstances, will remake all things and it will all be sorted out. the eternal eschatological end of this whole thing will probably blow our minds, and I'm willing to allow for the "dare we hope" faith and trust that could inspire a marvelous result. but there is always an urgentness to our mission to bring souls to Christ and His Church, an urgentness inspired by the fact that the road to hell is broad and easy and it is a narrow road that leads to salvation. I wouldn't condemn Von Balthasar, it's not my place, but I'd say he was wrong about hoping that hell is empty of human souls. Hell isn't empty of human souls and Christ did not save the souls that were already in the hell of the dåmned. Balthasar gives people false hope, hope is only hope if it has the possibility of becoming true. I'm not attacking Augstine...Godbless Him....I just don't agree with his God will save a few point of view...That's not attacking him saying I don't agree with him...Although thanks for pointing that out as I should be careful with my words....Godbless... Ok, but just to be clear his God is God, and your God too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) Ok we have the same God so I'm to believe in predestination and only a few people are saved ? No thanks I don't rememember being taught anywhere I have to believe what the saints taught to be a faithful catholic. I don't agree with him at all. I do respect him though and place him way above myself. And after you pointed that out I said a prayer and told him I'm sorry. He's the saint I'm the sinner. Yet I have a living and personal relationship with a loving God and I won't go through life pretending I believe 5 % of all good michael vorris type catholics are the only people going to heaven. And all the other catholics and the horribe horrible horrible non catholic population is going to hell to burn for eternity. And to make it clear what you quoted was meant to say I don't believe his point of view that says God will only save a few....I just reread what you quoted and see how it could have been confused what you thought I meant. Peace KOC Edited February 22, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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