Aloysius Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) dairy, I'm not sure you entirely get it, because it's still a game of divine accounting for you, even when you make it "quality over quantity", you're still treating it like there's a divine ledger and a balance sheet, the quality over quantity thing just means you think those who have long good lives get weighted more in the final ledger balance. it's not quite like that, there is no logical mathematical explanation for why killing all the baptized babies isn't a great way to get a bunch of babies into heaven. because it's not mathematics, it's the salvation of souls. this life is important, and it can only be freely given up for something greater when you're not doing something bad to this life, we're not Manichean dualists hoping to shed our evil physical bodies to become pure spirit, the physical world is good and created by God and His plans in this world are significant and important. I understand eternal life makes this life pale in comparison; but so too does the vastness of space make the earth pale in comparison, neither comparison devalues the importance of what goes on in the smaller stage. These infants are meant for life, if their lives are tragically cut short outside of our control that doesn't mean they have any less quality in heaven when they get there than someone who led a full life. I'm reminded of Christ's Parable of the workers who came at the end and got paid the same as the rest... who is quality and which is quanitity, they all got paid the same. Edited February 14, 2013 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) they all get paid the same culd mean they all get eternal life... or maybe one who wasnt developed but would be with more life gets the whole thing. im only speculating against the more obvious interpretation because its pretty standard for saints and theologians to sa there are degrees of heaven in a sense they dont all get the same then. i admit my quality point might not be accurate in that he might want more souls, it;s hard to say which anaolgy fits. i see that it might not even be a quantityy or qualty thing... as Al said maybe he was getting at more people lving out there ourpose God wants. but even if that were the case... does God want more souls i heaven or more living out there purpose? or as i said, more who by free will enter heaven or do his purpose or more souls in heaven. ? id say that's in a sense "quality" over quantity, even if not in te quality sense i had sugested. maybe it cant per se be reduced to math per se, ut that's what im sort of saying too... quality, or in other words qualitative nonmath qualities. at the end of the day yu can say X or Y souls could have went to heaven that didnt cause u didnt shoot a bunch of babies. thered be a math element to it even if it all isnt measured numerically.... cand one could ask if that nonnumerical aspect outweighs the numerical. as i said God wouldnt not desire the means involved but how can we say he wouldnt like the result given these consierations? sure he might want ore qualitative factors but it's speculative the other wa too isnt it? i guess one could say God intends us all to live our lives even if that means we end up in hell and even if he desired us n heaven.... and this is self evidence by the nature of our lives that we are put here to live, not be shot as babies. but if this were true wed be saying that God must want the qualitiative stuff over the quantity ..... i see no way out of at least some numeric analysis Edited February 14, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) this is mostly just speculation given normative theology etc. i actually dont think babies "go to heaven" per se. they go somewhere to live out a purpose, or they get what they would have got had they lived their life. heaven and hell are more like a spectrum to me and everyone goes where they do fit, or would fit. .more based on what and who u r from an eternal perspective and less about where u happenened to be when u died. (there are important aspects im life tho such as faith that very mcuh does matter if u achieved n this life) Edited February 14, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 someone thought they make a sacrifice of his soul, by indiscriminately killing babies? (i guess we could say they are baptized to take out that question) that way more on balance more souls go to heaven. was this a self less act, especialyly if it's the only thing thatd keep this person out of heaven? is God more happy with every person who can by free will go to heave do so despite fewer technically in heaven, or by more souls who happen to make it to heaven no matter the method? should we abondon the idea that all baptized babies go to heaven? what would one make of this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7w64fbqYQY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Evang, I wonder what you mean when you use the term "Christian". In a very technical sense, the Catholic Church views all persons baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with the intent of being baptized (either by choice or by guardianship of their parents) as being Christian. Even those not living the Christian life, worshiping and adoring God, etc... are considered Christian by the grace of their baptism. There are others that profess Christianity yet support infanticide, birth control, pornography, etc. These people may very well be those who scripture refers to as saying Lord Lord yet being cast out. In addition to that, there are Christians who in the depths of their heart know something is wrong, yet through intellectual reason justify it as being morally acceptable and follow false reason rather than their conscience. Those are the lukewarm who may be spit out. I don't think most anyone here would argue that those really truly attempting to live out a Christ like life, worshipping and adoring God, longing for heaven, repenting of their sins, and seeking the truth in all things even if they may be invincibly ignorant of some truths of Christ would be going to hell if they died living this out. Humility would be key to that lifestyle as they would have to be willing to change as soon as they became informed of something that was wrong that they previously thought acceptable or something that was true that they previously believed false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 When I say Christian I mean the people the Catholic Church (backed by scripture, tradition, and common sense calls the converted) and whom Evangelicals call the born again--I agree with every jot and tittle of Catholic Theology around Baptism, but I never mean to include all the baptized in the word Christian, the Bible says the godless baptized are to be cast out of our fellowship and not treated as brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Good shot 90% of souls are going to heaven and a lot will suffer huge in purgatory but will make it to heaven in the end. I've even read something from Pope B where he says something similar. And it makes sense. If purgatory is so bad and painfull and its unlimited in time surely God can use that to cleanse,punish, and purify most souls. And after all God wants everyone saved and God gets what He wants. I've seen it argued here more then once Hitler could be in heaven. And this is the only way it would seem fair and somehow just. And that would be through purgatory. I'm not downplaying sin or fear of hell or anything like that. Just a thought. Godbless. Edited February 21, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Few will be saved, many will not. Matthew 7:13: Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Our Popes and Saints and the Bible all suggest that most men will burn. This is why the saints exhibited such a thirst and zeal for men's souls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Well I disagree most will burn. If you want to buy into that go ahead. I've read some recent stuff from Father Barron and Pope B that suggust the complete opposite. I don't think Jesus suffered and died the death He did so most could burn. Anyhow Godbless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Well I disagree most will burn. If you want to buy into that go ahead. I've read some recent stuff from Father Barron and Pope B that suggust the complete opposite. I don't think Jesus suffered and died the death He did so most could burn. Anyhow Godbless. The Fewness of the Saved is a well established doctrine supported by Christ's own words, Universal Salvation is condemned although people like Father Barron try to repackage it. I'm not sure Pope Benedict XVI has endorsed it, but even if he did Christ trumps him. Edited February 21, 2013 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) lol Ok well you and Augustine can believe most are going to hell and Christ just came and suffered the way He did for the select few...I in noway think all will be saved although its possible. I have a friendship with a loving God so i don't think most will burn but you are free to go on thinking that is the case... Edited February 21, 2013 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Well I disagree most will burn. If you want to buy into that go ahead. I've read some recent stuff from Father Barron and Pope B that suggust the complete opposite. I don't think Jesus suffered and died the death He did so most could burn. Anyhow Godbless. It's certainly not a theological certitude that most will burn. The two most recent popes and a number of prominent theologians imagine a depopulated hell. Still I do not think Jesus Christ is a maker of empty threats and I do not think speculation, always acknowledged as such, by two popes cancels what has always been the way certain texts and certain naked facts about the nature of man were read. I do not believe most men are going to hell because I wish to see them there, but because I believe it to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 And if most were to be "burned" like you say then it would make sense to kill babies so they could go to heaven. Why take the chance and try to go to war with a supernatural powerful god of this world satan ? I mean if only a few are saved and most are burned you don't stand a good shot so it would be an act of mercy to kill a baptised baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) No. Catholicism does not regard the means as being justified through the end. AND there isn't a theological certitude as to what happens when babies die. Edited February 21, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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