What If All Dead Babies Went To Heaven And...

[Nihil Obstat]

I think Al's distaste for prooftexting extends to Catholics every bit as much as Protestants. :)

[Aloysius]

all of those verses are quite beautiful assertions of the way grace has been freely given to us, and how simple it is to stay with Christ without but a healthy spec and drop of the fear of hell, it is miniscule because you're in the hands of Our Lord and fully receptive to His graces, which make you fully disposed towards repentance, but this is not the decision of the Angels, a human being can change his mind, he can wreck his faith, he can sin horribly, basically, he can turn away from the Lord.  any explanations that they were never really Christians to begin with is nothing but a cop-out, it is quite clear and fully apparent to anyone with eyes to see that there are people who were fully devout and fully in love with Our Lord who became sinners of the highest order, who turned their backs on the Lord and who fall into the categories of sinners who will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  this by no means should dampen our great peace and trust in the grace we have received that has saved us, is saving us, and will save us.

 

I apologize if the use of the term proof-text offends you, but as you can clearly understand, we do have a bit of a different understanding of the scriptures and their purpose, and how to best contextually understand them.  I do not believe I could ever prove to you what I'm saying through a series of verses, even if I placed them all in context; I wasn't attempting to be pejorative with the term, but I understand that it may have come across that way, so I do apologize.  I simply believe that my explanation here is fully consonant with and infused by the scriptures and the constant living teaching of the Body of Christ.  that website I linked to is the best I could do in terms of citing references for you, though, it has many on all sorts of topics.

 

but I am not here saying that our salvation is so fragile that one single accidental moment of weakness would end it, Our Lord is just and merciful, the grace that has filled our hearts has predisposed us to repentance and the Lord won't look away from that, He has saved us, and is saving us, and will save us.  don't misunderstand me, faith through grace and the love of God is an overwhelmingly powerful thing.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i guess u  could argue n a nutshell that God is more concerned about quality than quantity of souls

makes sense, consanant w what Al was arguing too i think

why worry about more blades of grass that u have so many of when u can have more flowers which are not so common, God could be thinking

[Evangetholic]

On your first paragraph, all I can say is "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" 1 John 2:19

 

I have no means other than the Bible of understanding God or anything else--the Bible and its picture of what "forever," "all-mighty," "justified," "sanctified," "regeneration," and "saved" mean seems to be at odds with the claims of many churches. The One I have known has saved me by "so great a salvation" that I may sleep in the comfort and peace of unknowing that he is abundantly and unfailingly on my side--and that nothing not even sin and the very hounds of hell will cause my damnation. 

Edited February 14, 2013 by Evangetholic

[dairygirl4u2c]

I guess I will 'fess up here. I am not tempted to kill babies. :|

 

as i will fess up that i have no desire neither

 

"just the type of scenario fishing dairygirl loves to do."

 

guilty as charged here tho...

[Nihil Obstat]

i guess u  could argue n a nutshell that God is more concerned about quality than quantity of souls

I do not think that this is correct either. God has created precisely as many souls as He desired, with a plan for each one of them, and He desires precisely all of them to be saved. There is no one or the other about it.

[Evangetholic]

I do not think that this is correct either. God has created precisely as many souls as He desired, with a plan for each one of them, and He desires precisely all of them to be saved. There is no one or the other about it.

 

The Bible says that he desires all men to come to salvation and a knowledge of the truth. It also says that humans are "wonderfully and fearfully made" He wants quantity because we ARE quality. Possessed of enough quality that God became man and died on cross that men might not burn in the flames that we all deserve.

[dairygirl4u2c]

then wouldnt it be to God's satisfaction (as an end, not a mean) that a murderer kill babies to increase the number in heaven?

 

i dont see how else to argue it other than the quality v quantity thing

 

even God desiring more souls by their free will repentence than by even more souls via technicality "babies go to heaven", is a quality over quantty argument

Edited February 14, 2013 by dairygirl4u2c

[Evangetholic]

Do you not know that God detests sin?

[dairygirl4u2c]

"He wants quantity because we ARE quality"

 

most theologians agree that there are levels of heaven etc. so this statement that we are quality basically overloks that

[Nihil Obstat]

God, in His infinite love, desires each of us to follow His Divine Will, and by so doing, to be saved.

[Evangetholic]

There are various levels of reward. But man as the bearer of God's image is sacred.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Do you not know that God detests sin?

 

good things can come from bad circumstances. he might not desire the deaths of the babies.... but the murderer could by his own free will kill them, and God could in theory be happy w the results, arguably more happy w the results. but im goin w the idea he wants quality over quantity

[Nihil Obstat]

good things can come from bad circumstances. he might not desire the deaths of the babies.... but the murderer could by his own free will kill them, and God could in theory be happy w the results, arguably more happy w the results. but im goin w the idea he wants quality over quantity

The murderer would, in his crime, be rejecting whatever plan God had formed for the child, when He created the child in an act of His positive Will.

God desires good for His creation, for their own sake, because He loves them/us unconditionally.

[Aloysius]

this thread is classic old school phatmassing for me, haha, makes me feel young again, scenario-fishing with dairy girl and internet-apologetics that center around the role of scripture with Protestants... it's been a while :cyclops:  there was a time when I'd've gotten into some scripture-reference gunslinging here, haha, the good old days of fuzzy bunny crusades..

 

Evang, I certainly recognize that there are some who were never truly followers among those that leave, but I do not think that scripture can apply to every scenario, it becomes too much of a stretch, too much of a cop-out that seems demonstrably untrue to me.  That very long list of scriptural references on the site I posted go into the process of salvation and grace with plenty of scriptural references, but in any event regardless of the "theory" of it, I appreciate and affirm your tremendous trust in Our Lord, and I share that trust, and while I affirm the possibility created by the continued presence of my soul's free will that I could turn away if I wished (making it all the more significant in my view that I do not turn away, though I could), I have trust and hope in final perseverance... while I think some of your theology might be a bit wrong (but theology as an academic exercise I tend to have a St. Francis like aversion to these days, preferring to be a apophatic and mysterious and meditative, though I also dabble in it as I always have), some hot potato Catholics (also known as the scrupulous) could still learn a thing or two about faith and trust in the Mercy of God.

 

Having scripture as your only source, I'd be willing to discuss that more in the other thread you made if you wanted, but personally I don't view some text-book as my source, it is my relationship with other Christians through the Church, my relationship through Christ through prayer (and through liturgical prayer with other Christians) that really provide my context.  The early Christians didn't have a leatherbound bible that they read on their own with a highlighter and notebook (not to disparage study of the scriptures, it's a worthy pursuit), they engaged with a living Body of Christ and that's where their whole lived and applied theology came in their lives, I don't find my sources in written texts, Christ didn't incarnate himself in print, but in flesh.