dairygirl4u2c Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 someone thought they make a sacrifice of his soul, by indiscriminately killing babies? (i guess we could say they are baptized to take out that question) that way more on balance more souls go to heaven. was this a self less act, especialyly if it's the only thing thatd keep this person out of heaven? is God more happy with every person who can by free will go to heave do so despite fewer technically in heaven, or by more souls who happen to make it to heaven no matter the method? should we abondon the idea that all baptized babies go to heaven? what would one make of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 wat? :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 What do you mean? Generally? and by "keep out of heaven"? (I am aware of only one things that keeps people out of heaven--indifference to the Cross of the Lord Jesus or hatred for the same.) What does my will have to do with Heaven? Who is killing babies either discriminately or indiscriminately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-lia-FEIY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 the "logic" being that one should just baptize then kill every infant to ensure it goes to heaven? the purpose of this life is much more than a game of hot potato with sins, hoping you won't be holding the mortal hot potato when you die. we are meant to live this life and do good in this world, it is a sad tragedy when anyone leaves this world even when they leave it for heaven. killing a baptized infant to "send it to heaven" may seem to some accountant of grace and sin to be a good act, but it is not good, not at all. the infant is meant to do something on this earth, and it is a far greater thing to let them do it than to get them into heaven quickly. alas, if one thinks of heaven and hell in that way, one has only a cursory academic theological understanding, and not a real relationship with the divine graces. if theology were a math problem it'd make sense to kill an infant right away as it was baptized, to send it to heaven, but quite frankly it isn't, and you'd be committing a grave sin against that infant, inflicting a grave harm against them, regardless of some calculation as to whether they'd have ended up in heaven or hell at the end of their lives. it's fundamentally a Manichean hatred of the material world that could inspire such a twisted logic, but we love the material world God has given us and believe the highest good is to live as perfectly as we can as long as we can in this life and THEN go to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yes, what Aloysius said. We mustn't kill babies. (Don't you just love this ecumenical spirit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 the "logic" being that one should just baptize then kill every infant to ensure it goes to heaven? the purpose of this life is much more than a game of hot potato with sins, hoping you won't be holding the mortal hot potato when you die. we are meant to live this life and do good in this world, it is a sad tragedy when anyone leaves this world even when they leave it for heaven. killing a baptized infant to "send it to heaven" may seem to some accountant of grace and sin to be a good act, but it is not good, not at all. the infant is meant to do something on this earth, and it is a far greater thing to let them do it than to get them into heaven quickly. alas, if one thinks of heaven and hell in that way, one has only a cursory academic theological understanding, and not a real relationship with the divine graces. if theology were a math problem it'd make sense to kill an infant right away as it was baptized, to send it to heaven, but quite frankly it isn't, and you'd be committing a grave sin against that infant, inflicting a grave harm against them, regardless of some calculation as to whether they'd have ended up in heaven or hell at the end of their lives. it's fundamentally a Manichean hatred of the material world that could inspire such a twisted logic, but we love the material world God has given us and believe the highest good is to live as perfectly as we can as long as we can in this life and THEN go to heaven. :hehe: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Since we all agree that killing babies, no matter how tempting this act might be, is a sin; maybe we could take a moment someone could explain to me from whence comes the Catholic idea of Christians dying and going to hell because of mortal sin. Edited February 13, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Since we all agree that killing babies, no matter how tempting this act might be, is a sin; maybe we could take a moment someone could explain to me from whence comes the Catholic idea of Christians dying and going to hell because of mortal sin. I guess I will 'fess up here. I am not tempted to kill babies. :| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) lol nor am I, no sane person really is, it's just a position that could be logically deduced from the out of context mathematical evaluation of theological facts, just the type of scenario fishing dairygirl loves to do. as to mortal sin sending one to hell... there's a lot of scholastic framework involved in the way we interact with what a mortal sin is, that it is "grave matter" and we have given "full consent of the will" while "fully knowing it is wrong"... ultimately, it comes down to understanding that if we turn away from Christ in an unrepentant way, we kill grace in our soul and thereby reject the promise of heaven, that by our free will we are fully capable of rejecting Christ while on this earth and if we die while unrepentant of that, we go to hell. As I said in my other post, it's not supposed to be a game of mortal sin hot potato (though the way many have understood our roman scholastic tradition has led to some peoples' spiritualities that effectively act that way), and we can constantly supplicate the Lord for the grace of final perseverance, knowing that heaven and hell are not just matters of statistics and chance so that hell is full of people who just accidentally happen to die at the wrong time. mortal sin is a serious rejection of Christ and it can send you to hell, but that doesn't detract from the fact that grace and forgiveness are free gifts offered to us all from the Lord and all we have to do is accept and engage with them in the type of loving relationship whereby faith inspires works and works strengthen faith, and both forge the pathways through which the divine graces flow into your soul. mortal sin destroys those pathways, but sincere repentance rebuilds them (sacramentally we socially engage with our Lord so that we can engage with realities not tainted by our own damaged perceptions, for mortal sin can damage our perceptions and make us weak and not honest with ourselves, explaining it all away when we sin and blinding us with false repentance, the sacrament of confession is the surest way to ensure that grace and forgiveness repair you, it has a way of breaking through to you even when you've twisted up your mind and your intentions so that your repentance isn't fully out of sincere love of God but out of convenience or routine) with sincere faith and sincere practice of that faith will inspire a healthy drop of fear of hell that's greatly overshadowed by your trust in the mercy and wisdom of God, trust and hope in final perseverance and never allow for despair. Edited February 14, 2013 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Your holiness, restraint, and longsufferance are remarkable. You are an hero. (in response to nihil. I am still reading Aloysius' post.) Edited February 14, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Hmm...doesn't sound Biblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Our Lord's words: Matthew 7:21-23 Many call upon the Lord, they believed in Him, but He did not know them because they were sinners who did not live their faith, such people do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. St. Paul's Words: 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 He lists sins for which people will not enter the kingdom of heaven here. St. Paul has been shown to expel people from the Church (I believe the origin of the word "anathema" is biblical) and he says those who partake of the Eucharist unworthily are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord... but this passage here makes clear references to sins that can exclude you from the Kingdom of Heaven. I assure you this is entirely biblical, is is a theological synthesis of the continual train of the New Testament as it at once insists that grace and forgiveness are free gifts, but simultaneously requires good works and an absence of evil acts as prerequisites for entering the Kingdom of God. and actually, 1 John 5:16-17 specifically distinguishes between sins that "lead to death" and sins that do not lead to death, which is the origin of the Church's distinction between "mortal" and "venial" sins, there are sins that lead to the death of the soul, and that's a 100% biblical assertion, the words of Christ, of St. Paul, and of St. John would attest to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) None of those passages seem to be speaking about Christians who have sinned going to hell (even all of the Apostle Paul's handing over to Satan--which your own church says was only excommunication). And I quoted that passsage from 1 John on here last night for a different purpose, but I can see that being read as you are reading it now. Matthew 7:21-23 does a lot of things, justify the idea that Christians might go to hell is not one of the things it does though: 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ It's unimaginable to me that this would be a Christian's response on coming face to face with their greatest love. Sounds like something the self-deceived and unregenerate might do. "Hey Jesus but I am totally awesome and have done really great stuff for you! I'm the shiznit!" How does the Catholic Church read verse 11 here? My understanding of this verse depends on things like, but by no means limited to 2 Corinthians 5:17 and being a new creature in Christ. I Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. What about these: Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. and the Words of Jesus in John 10:28-29 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. This is just off the top of my head and if there's anything I need to say to clarify my position, then please ask. Edited February 14, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Indeed there are many texts that emphasize that grace is a free and powerful gift, but there are indeed many others that indicate that sin can lead to hell (many that are directed at those who are already Christians), I don't really intend to get into a proof-texting back and forth, perhaps years and years ago, I'll reference this website to make my point about how much scripture there is surrounding these things: http://scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-V (no need to try to go point by point through all those, I quite realize I'm just dumping a large list of references, but I don't think scripture can really be efficaciously referenced by non-contextual proof-texting anyway) personally I feel that what I described was a good theological synthesis of what is broadly presented throughout the scriptures of the New Testament, a simultaneous assertion of the free gift of grace and the acknowledgment that sin can lead to hell... we fully hope and trust in final perseverance, but we also know that our sins can sever us from God if we choose to let them and that we therefore must be repentant of them in order to continue to walk in the way of salvation. no one will arbitrarily snatch us out of Our Lord's hands once we have fled to them, but he also will not infringe upon our free will if we choose to turn away from Him on our own. Edited February 14, 2013 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 No one's asking you to proof-text, that's a very annoying buzzword. Protestants do not proof-text anymore than Catholics worship Mary and believe in a works based system of salvation. All of these statements are lies. If one makes claims about Almighty God and they expect me to believe those claims they sure as heck better be sourced somewhere other than their latest denominational bullet points. And I've been looking at Scrpture Catholic for days. It hurts my head how much ripping out of context it does (in several places it offers readings of verses that the Catholic Church itself says are not accurate--it's almost as comical as my church and its desperate desire to justify Lady Bishops). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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