Evangetholic Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) This is the entire section from 1 John 3 that you are quoting: 1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. ----------------------------------------------------- This is about a life whose very pattern after an apparent conversion is sin. The Virgin Mary is described in Luke as kecharitomene (highly favored, full of grace) she was in no way shape or form a woman of lawlessness the word suggests uncommon holiness. Even if I disagree with Catholics about her supposed sinlessness and Immaculate Conception, I do not in any way shape or form believe that she was under the power of Satan or lived a life that would make the Holy Bible's declaration of her as "Blessed" and "Full of Grace" a lie. Edited February 18, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) This is the entire section from 1 John 3 that you are quoting: 1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. ----------------------------------------------------- This is about a life whose very pattern after an apparent conversion is sin. The Virgin Mary is described in Luke as kecharitomene (highly favored, full of grace) she was in no way shape or form a woman of lawlessness the word suggests uncommon holiness. Even if I disagree with Catholics about her supposed sinlessness and Immaculate Conception, I do not in any way shape or form believe that she was under the power of Satan or lived a life that would make the Holy Bible's declaration of her as "Blessed" and "Full of Grace" a lie. I understand you loud and clear. You are telling us that Mary is not under the power of the Devil but at the same time you are saying she is ‘not’ sinless from the very beginning. You are practically mixing black and white that is why I am saying your argument is ‘grayish’ and make it clearer. You are practically saying 'not all sinners are under the power of the evil spirit' or 'sometimes evil spirit has nothing to do in some sin' or 'sometimes evil spirit is not at work on sinner'. You will end up....evil spirit is not that evil because he has nothing to do to the sins committed by Mary. This is now the scenario if I will follow your thought. If Mary will be asked by God, Mary, are you a sinner? Then Mary answered, Yes Father I have sinned forgive me, Please Forgive me Father. Then, God said why do you do that? Because of the Old Serpent, The Devil you created. And then, the Devil answered, ‘No, no, no, no I have nothing to do with that’. Then God said ‘How come you have nothing to do with that’? Who said it? Then, the Serpent said ‘Asked Mr. Evangetholic, he exonerated me from Mary’s sin, asked him if I am lying’. Let me put it this way, what Spirit do you think Mary has? Edited February 18, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 I disown my "right" to not be Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 I disown my "right" to not be Catholic. What right do you disown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 What right do you disown? It's a double negative, so not so much disown, but God willing, redeem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) ,,,double post again. Sorry Edited February 20, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) "Now, if Mary is not sinless from the very beginning and sin was forgiven only after Jesus' appearance. (See above verse). Are you saying Mary is not yet ‘cleanse’ from sin before she give birth to Jesus? Was she ‘contaminated’ with sin during that time when she is still in the act of giving birth with Jesus?" "all have sinned and fa;; short of the glory of God" it's expecting to much for this to be literally true for all. mary might not be included. this is how your verse can be negated too I disown my "right" to not be Catholic. Do you agree with Dairygirl4u2c? That Mary must be 'sinless' otherwise your Mother of God is of the Devil. Or you will become worse than what you are now because the Devil seems telling the truth and you will find yourself against John 8:44. I really think I know where you are coming from in your argument that is why I want to discuss it with you. But first you must see why Catholics are 'force' to consider Mary as pure and sinless. Now, do you agree with Dairygirl4u2c? or you have other ideas. Edited February 20, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 more gnostic heresy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 more gnostic heresy Why? Are you too afraid to hear it? :hehe2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) Since Evangetholic is still meditating and do not want to be disturbed. Let him alone. On the other hand, to you who believed in Mary's purity from the very beginning, please clarify something for us before you preach that Mary is truly sinless from the very beginning. This is important since Mariology is already in the air.. First, If she is truly pure and sinless , why then Mary said ‘"My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior’? (see Luke 1:46-55). From what she is being saved by her Saviour if she is truly sinless from the very beginning ? (meaning, saved from what?) Edited February 20, 2013 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscerningCatholic Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Also, Genesis 3:15 reads, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed. She will crush your head and you will strike at her heel." THE woman. Not ALL women. Not A woman. THE woman. Also, God got the chance to create His own mother. (Jealous? :P ) Why wouldn't He want her to be perfect and sinless from the very beginning? If His all perfect, all powerful Son was to be born of this woman, why would God have Him come forth from a sinful person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Also, Genesis 3:15 reads, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed. She will crush your head and you will strike at her heel." THE woman. Not ALL women. Not A woman. THE woman. Also, God got the chance to create His own mother. (Jealous? :P ) Why wouldn't He want her to be perfect and sinless from the very beginning? If His all perfect, all powerful Son was to be born of this woman, why would God have Him come forth from a sinful person? In your quoted verse who is the winner? (you must remember we are talking here of ‘seed of the devil’ and ‘seed of a woman’). Let us discuss this later. Again, I understand what you are saying but why Mary say these words if she is not a sinner? So, from what do you think she was being saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyAnn Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 The priest who taught my RCIA always explained it like this. Imagine sinning as falling into a pit. When we sin, we've fallen into the pit and we can't get out. God lifts us out of the pit and saves us. But God can also catch us before we fall into the pit in the first place. He has still saved us from the pit, we just didn't fall in. So God saved our Blessed Mother, but she never sinned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangetholic Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) I was reconciled to the Catholic Church this morning Reyb, just got home from Mass. I abjure the accusation that Mary ever sinned--wasn't comfortable flat out saying it anyway. Being (and in the many years you've been here, I'm sure you've heard this before) sinless and Immaculately conceived need to imply that God was not her savior. He saved her from sin (the consequences of Adam's sin and the evil inclination to sin). So there. That's the Catholic position. Without taking more than two posts to do it (if you do I'll stop participating [will never stop praying that you leave your odd personal fantasies for the Gospel though]), for me who has not read all of your past posts please explain to me what you'd have me believe. Stop investigating, asking the same question over and over again, and use human language as best you can to state your beliefs--this is what the men of the Bible did. Edited February 20, 2013 by Evangetholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 The priest who taught my RCIA always explained it like this. Imagine sinning as falling into a pit. When we sin, we've fallen into the pit and we can't get out. God lifts us out of the pit and saves us. But God can also catch us before we fall into the pit in the first place. He has still saved us from the pit, we just didn't fall in. So God saved our Blessed Mother, but she never sinned. So what is saving process in your example. It is catching or lifting from pit? Are you saying there are two ways of ‘saving’? Let us make your little story precise and simple. If sinners are people inside that pit then, anyone who is not inside that pit are not sinners. If lifting is the process of saving, how can we say he saved that man if in fact he not yet inside that pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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